Elphel 333 (practical thread)

Oscar Spierenburg · February 5th, 2007, 07:26 AM

I'll do that. I just need some time to get some good footage.
My first tests disappeared from the internet, so here it is again:
(it's not fully focused well and at an early stage of the macro lens I made, so..)

I'll post new footage usable for the WIKI page as soon as I have some.

Odd Nydren · February 10th, 2007, 10:07 AM

Nice shot!

Would it be possible to see some images of the actual lens too...some info on how you built the groundglass solution for the elphel 333??
Basically...some shots of the parts and some info on how you put it together and where you bought them?

Sorry if I'm too pushy...just really curious! :)

Thanks

//O.

Oscar Spierenburg · February 10th, 2007, 01:34 PM

Odd, click on the 'Microwax guide' link bellow my signature. Most of what you need to know is on my site, but the footage there is shot with a consumer camcorder.
I'll post some pictures of the modified version for the Elphel soon.

Odd Nydren · February 10th, 2007, 10:14 PM

Ive clicked on your link a multitude of times already ;)

..thats why Im so interested in how you adapted it to the elphel!

Im thinking of getting a shaking nikon groundglass...but also thinking of making one of yours as I really like the film look of the shots in your gallery...

Maybe do both?

Wellsee :)

Im waiting for the Elphel 353 to be released...hopefully early April.

//O.

Hurcan Emre · February 11th, 2007, 03:54 AM

is the ground glass nessesery for the camera? just taking out the lenses in front of Elphel and projecting the light directly from 35mm lenses to the sensor would do fine i guess !?

Oscar Spierenburg · February 11th, 2007, 09:31 AM

Hurcan,

The sensor size is so much smaller than the 35mm negative. You'll get a huge telephoto effect. Even the 16mm filmcamera lens I use gets a small field of view.
Very sharp though (16mm lens):

Odd, I made the Elphel and the adapter in a photo enlarger... I'll post some pictures soon.

Hurcan Emre · February 11th, 2007, 09:50 AM

thanks for the answer

how about using a mignifier lens to make the image smaller? wouldn't that work?

ps: i tried your wax gg tutorial today. its works realy good. But i used candle wax for it and it came out very grainy. Where can i buy or find micro wax? any sugessions?

Oscar Spierenburg · February 11th, 2007, 11:22 AM

I guess there are hundreds of posts about an 'optical solution' in stead of the GG, but I don't think it is possible, nor has anyone achieved it. I think they are discussing something like it in the 'purely optical solution' thread.
Besides that, I have put a 35mm-camera lens in front of the Elphel, but it was very fuzzy on the light (blooming?), I don't think it's an option.

The wax is called micro-wax or microcrystalline wax. Soft and hard wax (I use the soft one)
It is used for candle making and batik painting techniques. So you should find or order it at a good hobby/artists shop. I had trouble finding it myself.

Matteo Pozzi · February 12th, 2007, 04:14 AM

hi oscar one question: is your adapter a vibrating one? or not? You've posted static images of the elphel + adapter, how the noise produced by the microvax is in the video? many thanks and good work

Oscar Spierenburg · February 12th, 2007, 07:21 AM

Matteo, it's a static adapter. In my opinion, you either have to make a very stable vibrating or rotating GG or make a wax glass. I think the image is sharper, because the focal plane (distance to the lens) stays exactly the same. A moving GG can loose sharpness if it moves (even the slightest movement) in and out of the focal plane. Of course you won't really notice because of the speed, but still..
Besides that, I really like it that I don't have to use a power source and have to remember turning on and off the adapter.

The grain of the microwax is almost unnoticeable. It looks a bit like a pattern of a projection screen, because it doesn't move when the camera moves. When the camera doesn't move, you won't really notice anything. Another issue is the dust. I have some spots on all my test shots, but I just blow in the adapter from time to time. If you want to do it right, you should get all the dust out and put a non-reflective piece of glass from at a maximum distance from the wax glass (like they do in the Guerilla35?)

Matteo Pozzi · February 12th, 2007, 07:27 AM

many thanks maybe when I've time I'll try your guide! for now I'm building a static adapter with the nikon type D screen :-)

Oscar Spierenburg · February 12th, 2007, 08:22 AM

Here are some pics of the adapter and the macrolens I made.

The camera on the adapter.

It has to be this long, because the image would get distorted when you get too close to the GG. Maybe I can get the whole elphel inside the (photo enlarger) adapter.

Here is the back of the home made macro lens. I drilled a hole in the cap that came with the elphel and put a lens from a 8mm filmcamera inside.

On the front I have the iris of a photo enlarger.

One other thing, I think the easiest way to have a real-time viewfinder (the streaming video is about a second later) is to put a separate viewfinder with a zoomlens on top or on one side of the adapter.
I'm building a viewfinder from a reflex photo camera. You can easily zoom in and out to get the same frame size you see on the laptop, just from a slightly different angle. You won't be able to pull focus visually, but I'm thinking about mechanically synching the viewfinder lens and the adapter lens to a follow-focus. Maybe I'll start working on that next week.

Odd Nydren · February 12th, 2007, 03:54 PM

Thank you so much for posting images of your design!

Building a DIY solution is so much more fun when getting inspired by the work of others!

Hmmm I think I need to spend some time finding a good macro lens with C or CS mount...

I'll post my findings.

//O.

Hurcan Emre · February 12th, 2007, 05:06 PM

i couldn't find micro wax. but i found parafin.

are parafin and microwax the same thing? or which one is the better sollution?

Oscar Spierenburg · February 12th, 2007, 06:11 PM

Paraffin wax has much more grain. In my experience the paraffin gives a bit brighter image, but too much grain. Have you tried artist suppliers shops?

February 10th, 2007, 10:07 AM	#17
Odd Nydren Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 88	Lens setup etc... Nice shot! Would it be possible to see some images of the actual lens too...some info on how you built the groundglass solution for the elphel 333?? Basically...some shots of the parts and some info on how you put it together and where you bought them? Sorry if I'm too pushy...just really curious! :) Thanks //O.

February 10th, 2007, 10:14 PM	#19
Odd Nydren Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 88	Microwax... Ive clicked on your link a multitude of times already ;) ..thats why Im so interested in how you adapted it to the elphel! Im thinking of getting a shaking nikon groundglass...but also thinking of making one of yours as I really like the film look of the shots in your gallery... Maybe do both? Wellsee :) Im waiting for the Elphel 353 to be released...hopefully early April. //O.

February 12th, 2007, 03:54 PM	#28
Odd Nydren Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 88	Images! Thank you so much for posting images of your design! Building a DIY solution is so much more fun when getting inspired by the work of others! Hmmm I think I need to spend some time finding a good macro lens with C or CS mount... I'll post my findings. //O.

February 12th, 2007, 05:06 PM	#29
Hurcan Emre Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 32	one last question :D i couldn't find micro wax. but i found parafin. are parafin and microwax the same thing? or which one is the better sollution?

February 5th, 2007, 07:26 AM	#16
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I'll do that. I just need some time to get some good footage. My first tests disappeared from the internet, so here it is again: (it's not fully focused well and at an early stage of the macro lens I made, so..) I'll post new footage usable for the WIKI page as soon as I have some.

February 10th, 2007, 01:34 PM	#18
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Odd, click on the 'Microwax guide' link bellow my signature. Most of what you need to know is on my site, but the footage there is shot with a consumer camcorder. I'll post some pictures of the modified version for the Elphel soon.

February 11th, 2007, 03:54 AM	#20
Hurcan Emre Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 32	is the ground glass nessesery for the camera? just taking out the lenses in front of Elphel and projecting the light directly from 35mm lenses to the sensor would do fine i guess !?

February 11th, 2007, 09:31 AM	#21
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hurcan, The sensor size is so much smaller than the 35mm negative. You'll get a huge telephoto effect. Even the 16mm filmcamera lens I use gets a small field of view. Very sharp though (16mm lens): Odd, I made the Elphel and the adapter in a photo enlarger... I'll post some pictures soon.

February 11th, 2007, 09:50 AM	#22
Hurcan Emre Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 32	thanks for the answer how about using a mignifier lens to make the image smaller? wouldn't that work? ps: i tried your wax gg tutorial today. its works realy good. But i used candle wax for it and it came out very grainy. Where can i buy or find micro wax? any sugessions?

February 11th, 2007, 11:22 AM	#23
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I guess there are hundreds of posts about an 'optical solution' in stead of the GG, but I don't think it is possible, nor has anyone achieved it. I think they are discussing something like it in the 'purely optical solution' thread. Besides that, I have put a 35mm-camera lens in front of the Elphel, but it was very fuzzy on the light (blooming?), I don't think it's an option. The wax is called micro-wax or microcrystalline wax. Soft and hard wax (I use the soft one) It is used for candle making and batik painting techniques. So you should find or order it at a good hobby/artists shop. I had trouble finding it myself.

February 12th, 2007, 04:14 AM	#24
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	hi oscar one question: is your adapter a vibrating one? or not? You've posted static images of the elphel + adapter, how the noise produced by the microvax is in the video? many thanks and good work

February 12th, 2007, 07:21 AM	#25
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Matteo, it's a static adapter. In my opinion, you either have to make a very stable vibrating or rotating GG or make a wax glass. I think the image is sharper, because the focal plane (distance to the lens) stays exactly the same. A moving GG can loose sharpness if it moves (even the slightest movement) in and out of the focal plane. Of course you won't really notice because of the speed, but still.. Besides that, I really like it that I don't have to use a power source and have to remember turning on and off the adapter. The grain of the microwax is almost unnoticeable. It looks a bit like a pattern of a projection screen, because it doesn't move when the camera moves. When the camera doesn't move, you won't really notice anything. Another issue is the dust. I have some spots on all my test shots, but I just blow in the adapter from time to time. If you want to do it right, you should get all the dust out and put a non-reflective piece of glass from at a maximum distance from the wax glass (like they do in the Guerilla35?)

February 12th, 2007, 07:27 AM	#26
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	many thanks maybe when I've time I'll try your guide! for now I'm building a static adapter with the nikon type D screen :-)

February 12th, 2007, 08:22 AM	#27
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Here are some pics of the adapter and the macrolens I made. The camera on the adapter. It has to be this long, because the image would get distorted when you get too close to the GG. Maybe I can get the whole elphel inside the (photo enlarger) adapter. Here is the back of the home made macro lens. I drilled a hole in the cap that came with the elphel and put a lens from a 8mm filmcamera inside. On the front I have the iris of a photo enlarger. One other thing, I think the easiest way to have a real-time viewfinder (the streaming video is about a second later) is to put a separate viewfinder with a zoomlens on top or on one side of the adapter. I'm building a viewfinder from a reflex photo camera. You can easily zoom in and out to get the same frame size you see on the laptop, just from a slightly different angle. You won't be able to pull focus visually, but I'm thinking about mechanically synching the viewfinder lens and the adapter lens to a follow-focus. Maybe I'll start working on that next week.

February 12th, 2007, 06:11 PM	#30
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Paraffin wax has much more grain. In my experience the paraffin gives a bit brighter image, but too much grain. Have you tried artist suppliers shops?