High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Oscar Spierenburg · March 15th, 2009, 07:19 AM

OK, here is a new approach to the 35mm adapter + Elphel camera + PC

If you take a look at the camera parts, there is a flexible connection between the sensor board and the main board. This makes it easy to put the camera body at a 45° angle to the sensor/lens.

I'm working on rod support now... I'll post some stuff later.
All comments are welcome.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 15th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Here is a better explained image with a basic rod support setup. I haven't figured out how to mount the camera and PC yet. Tripod support would be somewhere in the middle.

Ivan Castell · March 16th, 2009, 06:11 AM

Wow, this look great. I've tried to search this conversation to see what PC are you going to plug into this, and what software are you using to control the camera, sorry if you've already post this, but could you please give some details?

Oscar Spierenburg · March 16th, 2009, 06:57 PM

Hi Ivan,

It's just a simple 7" tablet-PC version of a netbook. Every EEPC that runs on Ubuntu/Linux is also suitable, but the tablet and touchscreen function on this netbook is pretty desirable.
I have a French version ( WeSurf ) of the Clevo running on Ubuntu.

Come to think of it.... this PC has also a Portrait / Landscape function, that auto-rotates the monitor image 90°.
It'll probably save more space when I put the laptop on it's side. I'll try it in the 3d model.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM

UPDATE: Added rod support and PC in "portrait position"
All comments welcome again... :)

Sebastian Pichelhofer · March 17th, 2009, 04:02 AM

Wow, great progress Oscar.

I think 4 rods are definitely the way to go as you can easily attach microphones, etc on the top rods.

Would it be possible with your setup to also shoot from the shoulder and have the laptop mounted at a side?

Ivan Castell · March 17th, 2009, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

It's just a simple 7" tablet-PC version of a netbook. Every EEPC that runs on Ubuntu/Linux is also suitable, but the tablet and touchscreen function on this netbook is pretty desirable.
I have a French version ( WeSurf ) of the Clevo running on Ubuntu.

Thanks a lot for the info.

But according to DP advises, when shooting in HD and using a 35mm adapter, focus is really critical. I wonder if the max resolution of your touchscreen (800x480) is enough for that or it'll be better to have a higher resolution screen (720p or something).

About your rod support it looks great but I'm looking for your 3d model for a typical shoulder mount position...

Sebastian Pichelhofer · March 17th, 2009, 06:07 AM

I don't think that a full resolution monitor is required to judge the image (sharpness).

Sony (and maybe others as well) does something called "peaking" to visualize image areas that are in perfect focus.

This basically looks like colored lines around sharp objects:
http://scubavideo.de/wp-content/uplo...peaking_on.jpg

This is done with image areas of high frequency information. Luckily this frequency information is available inside Elphel cameras as it is a byproduct of mjpeg compression. Now we just need to overlay this on a live image somehow.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 17th, 2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Pichelhofer

Sony (and maybe others as well) does something called "peaking" to visualize image areas that are in perfect focus.
...
This is done with image areas of high frequency information. Luckily this frequency information is available inside Elphel cameras as it is a byproduct of mjpeg compression. Now we just need to overlay this on a live image somehow.

This is the way to go. Those EEEPC's are relatively slow and real time preview is not yet evident on a slow PC. So we will possibly end up framing on a small (but live) image on the PC and focusing with the "peaking" method. That's why I'm going with the PC on its side now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Castell

About your rod support it looks great but I'm looking for your 3d model for a typical shoulder mount position...

I think we should take this step by step. Right now, the camera has a rolling shutter artifact that makes handheld shooting difficult. I'm not saying it's impossible though, but I'd think about a steadycam setup more than a shoulder mount.

But I'll look at the dimensions in the 3d model and see where the shoulder mount should be. Probably still behind the PC, so we don't need to put the PC on the side (which would makes it hard to balance)

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · March 17th, 2009, 10:01 PM

what about migrating to a Spartan-6 architecture with a soft core, microblaze or the like?

Andrey Filippov · March 17th, 2009, 10:42 PM

Spartan 6, yes, but in the current camera the CPU is a bottleneck. So upgrading FPGA will need upgrading CPU also. So I want it to be much faster than softcore and have all of the peripherals I need too.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · March 18th, 2009, 01:17 AM

That's the idea, using the Spartan to receive and send the image data, bypassing the CPU as much as possible, leaving the softcore (microblaze or better yet some open source one) to manage the strictly necessary, like passing settings to the CMOS sensor, etc,etc.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 19th, 2009, 07:19 PM

Updated the wiki: HD cinema camera Development FAQ - ElphelWiki

Sebastian Pichelhofer · March 24th, 2009, 03:56 AM

I started working on the cameras screen interface concept.

The nice thing is that this does not require any additional hardware, just some webprogramming and will run directly inside fullscreen firefox.

Here is how other folks do it:

http://www.hdforindies.com/uploaded_...ain-782743.jpg
http://provideocoalition.com/images/...s/DSC_0639.jpg
http://www.thehighwaymanmovie.com/im...onitor1850.jpg

Detailed plans how I want to technically approach this:
-) the main video window is running gecko media player (a firefox plugin that embedds mplayer)
-) the interface around it are 4 java applets (good for realtime drawing)

VLC could also be used for the video window (cross platform compatible) but so far I was not able to overlay anything on top of a VLC video and I was not able to turn off caching in VLC which results in a short delay in the live video stream.

The concept for the layout implies that you (the camera operator) use your right hand to move the tripod handle and your left hand to operate the touchscreen. Thats why the controls are on the left handside of the screen.

Now please find me more images of other manufacturers screen designs and give feedback!

Oscar Spierenburg · March 24th, 2009, 06:35 PM

This is really starting to look 'ideal' Sebastian!
I hope a slower PC can stream real time/full screen... what do you think?
One note: The design I'm making now uses the tablet PC on it's side (portrait) Would your interface be auto-scalable when you have a low res screen? Maybe it's an idea to have the HDD file browser bellow the controls, so you see them when you use a PC in portrait mode.
Tomorrow I'll make an example of what I mean.

Great work!

March 15th, 2009, 07:19 AM	#1036
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	OK, here is a new approach to the 35mm adapter + Elphel camera + PC If you take a look at the camera parts, there is a flexible connection between the sensor board and the main board. This makes it easy to put the camera body at a 45° angle to the sensor/lens. I'm working on rod support now... I'll post some stuff later. All comments are welcome. Attached Thumbnails

March 15th, 2009, 03:44 PM	#1037
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Here is a better explained image with a basic rod support setup. I haven't figured out how to mount the camera and PC yet. Tripod support would be somewhere in the middle. Attached Thumbnails

March 16th, 2009, 06:11 AM	#1038
Ivan Castell Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Zaragoza (Spain) Posts: 33	Wow, this look great. I've tried to search this conversation to see what PC are you going to plug into this, and what software are you using to control the camera, sorry if you've already post this, but could you please give some details? __________________ http://ivancastell.org

March 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM	#1040
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	UPDATE: Added rod support and PC in "portrait position" All comments welcome again... :) Attached Thumbnails

March 24th, 2009, 03:56 AM	#1049
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Camera GUI I started working on the cameras screen interface concept. The nice thing is that this does not require any additional hardware, just some webprogramming and will run directly inside fullscreen firefox. Here is how other folks do it: http://www.hdforindies.com/uploaded_...ain-782743.jpg http://provideocoalition.com/images/...s/DSC_0639.jpg http://www.thehighwaymanmovie.com/im...onitor1850.jpg Detailed plans how I want to technically approach this: -) the main video window is running gecko media player (a firefox plugin that embedds mplayer) -) the interface around it are 4 java applets (good for realtime drawing) VLC could also be used for the video window (cross platform compatible) but so far I was not able to overlay anything on top of a VLC video and I was not able to turn off caching in VLC which results in a short delay in the live video stream. The concept for the layout implies that you (the camera operator) use your right hand to move the tripod handle and your left hand to operate the touchscreen. Thats why the controls are on the left handside of the screen. Now please find me more images of other manufacturers screen designs and give feedback! Attached Thumbnails

March 16th, 2009, 06:57 PM	#1039
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hi Ivan, It's just a simple 7" tablet-PC version of a netbook. Every EEPC that runs on Ubuntu/Linux is also suitable, but the tablet and touchscreen function on this netbook is pretty desirable. I have a French version ( WeSurf ) of the Clevo running on Ubuntu. Come to think of it.... this PC has also a Portrait / Landscape function, that auto-rotates the monitor image 90°. It'll probably save more space when I put the laptop on it's side. I'll try it in the 3d model.

March 17th, 2009, 04:02 AM	#1041
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Wow, great progress Oscar. I think 4 rods are definitely the way to go as you can easily attach microphones, etc on the top rods. Would it be possible with your setup to also shoot from the shoulder and have the laptop mounted at a side?

March 17th, 2009, 06:07 AM	#1043
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	I don't think that a full resolution monitor is required to judge the image (sharpness). Sony (and maybe others as well) does something called "peaking" to visualize image areas that are in perfect focus. This basically looks like colored lines around sharp objects: http://scubavideo.de/wp-content/uplo...peaking_on.jpg This is done with image areas of high frequency information. Luckily this frequency information is available inside Elphel cameras as it is a byproduct of mjpeg compression. Now we just need to overlay this on a live image somehow.

March 17th, 2009, 10:01 PM	#1045
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	what about migrating to a Spartan-6 architecture with a soft core, microblaze or the like?

March 17th, 2009, 10:42 PM	#1046
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Spartan 6, yes, but in the current camera the CPU is a bottleneck. So upgrading FPGA will need upgrading CPU also. So I want it to be much faster than softcore and have all of the peripherals I need too.

March 18th, 2009, 01:17 AM	#1047
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	That's the idea, using the Spartan to receive and send the image data, bypassing the CPU as much as possible, leaving the softcore (microblaze or better yet some open source one) to manage the strictly necessary, like passing settings to the CMOS sensor, etc,etc.

March 19th, 2009, 07:19 PM	#1048
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Updated the wiki: HD cinema camera Development FAQ - ElphelWiki

March 24th, 2009, 06:35 PM	#1050
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	This is really starting to look 'ideal' Sebastian! I hope a slower PC can stream real time/full screen... what do you think? One note: The design I'm making now uses the tablet PC on it's side (portrait) Would your interface be auto-scalable when you have a low res screen? Maybe it's an idea to have the HDD file browser bellow the controls, so you see them when you use a PC in portrait mode. Tomorrow I'll make an example of what I mean. Great work!