High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Sebastian Pichelhofer · December 17th, 2008, 03:34 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

Automatic naming schemes are a great idea and also easy to implement.

You could work with camogmgui and camvc in 2 browser tabs, but I agree we need an user interface that does everything needed for filmmaking in a single application.

But in my opinion a website is in general not the primary choice for a filmmaker who is used to real time previews and that sort of stuff.

I recently tested some things in Java (real time histograms from the camera) and was quite happy with the results.

Java is nice because it's working on all platforms and can be run in a browser as applet or as a standalone app.

Maybe this could be a possible way to go for a realtime remote control application (with live video, not just image reloads).

Brandt Wilson · December 17th, 2008, 09:09 AM

What about using USB input device channels to trigger specific events, such as image formats?

If someone were to hack a USB controller, such as multibutton mouse, so that a rotary switch were wired into the various switch circuits, we could use the mouse click on states to tell the software which mode the camera was in.

This would be a very high level modification. Other more graphical changes, such as luma and color settings, would likely need to be more dynamic, as the camera operator would need to be able to respond to the needs of the moment. Maybe a choice-based approach based on a SETUP command that let you set white and black points? I would think that we would want to leave any deep color decisions until post production.

Andrey Filippov · December 17th, 2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

One other important thing to make the camera much more user friendly would be to integrate the necessary parts of the camvc to the camogmgui. As I understand... you need to set the camera up (exposure framesize color setting etc.) in the camvc before going to the camogmgui. (for people who don't know what I'm talking about: camvc and camogmgui )
Would this be possible? (maybe in frames if it makes things easier?)
We only need basic things: frame sizes (only video and film sizes I'd say) exposure - brightness or gain and color settings. Color setting can also be basic presets like: warm - cool - neutral - B/W etc. (maybe mimic some film types)
On the format tab we could use the compression quality setting.

Oscar,

I believe we'll improve/restore camvc - originally it had "DVR" capabilities with VCR like control buttons - we'll make something similar with the HDD. I spent some time recently on camvc in 8.0 software, it is now much more stable and the controls have ability to hide (screen shot shows live video through mozilla-plugin with the overlaid controls. I also made some cleanup there, split the code into more files to simplify future modifications.

Spectr is working now on improving the video streamer, including making it friendly to the camogm when used as preview tool - reduce its fps if the CPU resources needed fro continuous recording to HDD are running low. In the next plans fro the streamer - make it capable of streaming recorded files (providing timestamp-based search), so youi can watch them as on a camcorder (including FF play capability, play while recording).

The second screenshot shows development environment for the software - it is KDevelop

http://community.elphel.com/screensh...evelop_80.jpeg

Oscar Spierenburg · December 27th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Hello Everyone.

I've been redesigning my 35mm adapter. Because the size got a bit bigger than I wanted, I'd like to keep the distance between the Elphel and the projected 35mm image as small as possible, like 20 mm from the front of a small lens. This should not decrease the quality of course..

How can we choose the right lens for this purpose? The Elphel uses a 1/2.5" sensor (correct me if I'm wrong)... but not all the sensor is used. So that leaves us with 4mm (?) width sensor. Using this example, I would come up with an FL= 23mm lens. (4mm sensor x 20mm distance / 35mm image)

Am I correct on this one?
Now what options do we have in this range of (small) c-mount lenses?

Oscar Spierenburg · December 29th, 2008, 11:37 AM

My last post didn't seem to make much sense when I compare it to this page.
I'd get a FL 2.41 lens (or at 30mm distance a FL 4 lens)

I also remembered this post some time ago. So we should best be looking for an affordable machine vision prime.

Andrey Filippov · December 30th, 2008, 12:58 PM

Oscar, I understand that that would increase the size but I would still recommend you to use a pair of lenses to translate image from the "ground glass" plane to the sensor. The one closest to the sensor is a good quality short focal length C-mount lens - you may even consider 12mm mount ones - they are small, high resolution but low power. The second lens - 35mm one turned backwards, with focal length proportionally (~ 5-6 times) longer that the one attached to the camera. That lens does not to be anything super - F-number used will be proportionally higher than that of the first lens (only center part will be used), so some simple lens with small number of components should do the job.

Such two-lens configuration is normally used when you need high quality image translation without a special lens.

Oscar Spierenburg · December 30th, 2008, 07:23 PM

Ah, now I remember you mentioned this before. I'll experiment with this tomorrow!

I've made a lot of progress lately (actually been working every day on the camera this month)
The rods support has now a mount for the netbook. This is the first step to make this whole thing portable. Tomorrow I'll post some pictures.

Oscar Spierenburg · December 31st, 2008, 04:03 PM

Here are two pics of the rods with the tablet PC mount and the 35mm adapter.
It's not a designed thing... just a rough setup.

Andrey, I've done some experimenting, but I can't really figure out what you mean with the 35mm lens turned backwards. Is there an example of this setup somewhere on the web?

Sebastian Pichelhofer · January 1st, 2009, 05:48 AM

Wow that's a decent piece of equipment!

How exactly does the new 35mm adapter work compared to the old microwax static groundglass one?

Oscar Spierenburg · January 2nd, 2009, 09:47 AM

Sebastian, the 35mm adapter is adapted from a photo-enlarger. It has a focusing mechanism on the side like a follow focus. Much too imprecise to be really usable, but I can easily put some gears in between the original and a new focusing knob to make it work like a FF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

....The one closest to the sensor is a good quality short focal length C-mount lens - you may even consider 12mm mount ones -

Does anyone have experience with the quality of machine vision lenses? How about this one?

Andrey Filippov · January 3rd, 2009, 01:04 AM

Oscar, I meant M12 lenses like these:
Miniature CCD/CMOS lens for 1/2" or larger format imager
1/2” Megapixel Fixed Lenses
TECHSPEC Megapixel Finite Conjugate µ-Video Imaging Lenses - Edmund Optics

or just

http://www.google.com/search?q=M12+megapixel+1%2F2"+lens

Oscar Spierenburg · January 12th, 2009, 06:38 AM

Hi everyone,

For those who don't know; the camogm2 camera software can record audio ( see wiki )

One audio USB device I came across that I'm considering to buy is this USB Dual Pre.

It doesn't need additional drivers and I've read that it runs perfectly on Linux. It has direct monitoring headphone output and two XLR mic inputs with phantom power option.

Any thoughts?

Steven Mingam · January 22nd, 2009, 07:46 PM

Tascam US-122 is a classic, very good quality for the value.
I personally own the next model, the US-122L which is very nice & 24bits/96Khz but with poor drivers, and definitely no linux drivers :/ (Hope ?)

You should look for Class Audio Usb device as they are part of the usb standard and as such, supported by linux.

Régine Weinberg · January 23rd, 2009, 05:31 AM

Digigram UAX220Mic professional USB Audio interface for broadcast and other demanding pro audio applications featuring 2/2 balanced analog high-quality I/Os
please take a look, maybe a bit $$$$ but it works smooth with Linux.
I 'm digging for a cheaper alternative, there should be one
maybe even a kit

Ha found it in the disk nirvana on my Linux companion

Waoooooh
have a look, that looks cool, and is what we need
small and idiot proof in the field
no drivers no hassle
Plug XLR Mics Direct to USB - Kompoz.com

enjoy and good recording

ah and maybe the best one
BEHRINGER: UCA202
has A/D has SPDIF out, works with audacity, should be fine with Linux
a firewire version is also available

Oscar Spierenburg · January 23rd, 2009, 08:01 AM

I'll receive the ART dual pre next week. I've chosen this one because it's exactly what we need (and not more than we need): a mic pre amp with phantom power and direct monitoring output. It's a lot like the Tascam US-122, but smaller.
Of course it doesn't really matter what it looks like, but I think it would integrate very nice on the camera. Could be made detachable when you're using a sound operator.

I'll let you people know when I have it and if it works as good on linux as I've read.

December 27th, 2008, 01:03 PM	#1009
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hello Everyone. I've been redesigning my 35mm adapter. Because the size got a bit bigger than I wanted, I'd like to keep the distance between the Elphel and the projected 35mm image as small as possible, like 20 mm from the front of a small lens. This should not decrease the quality of course.. How can we choose the right lens for this purpose? The Elphel uses a 1/2.5" sensor (correct me if I'm wrong)... but not all the sensor is used. So that leaves us with 4mm (?) width sensor. Using this example, I would come up with an FL= 23mm lens. (4mm sensor x 20mm distance / 35mm image) Am I correct on this one? Now what options do we have in this range of (small) c-mount lenses? Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; December 27th, 2008 at 06:23 PM.

December 31st, 2008, 04:03 PM	#1013
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Here are two pics of the rods with the tablet PC mount and the 35mm adapter. It's not a designed thing... just a rough setup. Andrey, I've done some experimenting, but I can't really figure out what you mean with the 35mm lens turned backwards. Is there an example of this setup somewhere on the web? Attached Thumbnails

January 3rd, 2009, 01:04 AM	#1016
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	M12 lenses Oscar, I meant M12 lenses like these: Miniature CCD/CMOS lens for 1/2" or larger format imager 1/2” Megapixel Fixed Lenses TECHSPEC Megapixel Finite Conjugate µ-Video Imaging Lenses - Edmund Optics or just http://www.google.com/search?q=M12+megapixel+1%2F2"+lens

January 23rd, 2009, 05:31 AM	#1019
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Mic prea-amp with linux Digigram UAX220Mic professional USB Audio interface for broadcast and other demanding pro audio applications featuring 2/2 balanced analog high-quality I/Os please take a look, maybe a bit $$$$ but it works smooth with Linux. I 'm digging for a cheaper alternative, there should be one maybe even a kit Ha found it in the disk nirvana on my Linux companion Waoooooh have a look, that looks cool, and is what we need small and idiot proof in the field no drivers no hassle Plug XLR Mics Direct to USB - Kompoz.com enjoy and good recording ah and maybe the best one BEHRINGER: UCA202 has A/D has SPDIF out, works with audacity, should be fine with Linux a firewire version is also available

December 17th, 2008, 03:34 AM	#1006
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Thanks for the feedback. Automatic naming schemes are a great idea and also easy to implement. You could work with camogmgui and camvc in 2 browser tabs, but I agree we need an user interface that does everything needed for filmmaking in a single application. But in my opinion a website is in general not the primary choice for a filmmaker who is used to real time previews and that sort of stuff. I recently tested some things in Java (real time histograms from the camera) and was quite happy with the results. Java is nice because it's working on all platforms and can be run in a browser as applet or as a standalone app. Maybe this could be a possible way to go for a realtime remote control application (with live video, not just image reloads).

December 17th, 2008, 09:09 AM	#1007
Brandt Wilson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 220	What about using USB input device channels to trigger specific events, such as image formats? If someone were to hack a USB controller, such as multibutton mouse, so that a rotary switch were wired into the various switch circuits, we could use the mouse click on states to tell the software which mode the camera was in. This would be a very high level modification. Other more graphical changes, such as luma and color settings, would likely need to be more dynamic, as the camera operator would need to be able to respond to the needs of the moment. Maybe a choice-based approach based on a SETUP command that let you set white and black points? I would think that we would want to leave any deep color decisions until post production.

December 29th, 2008, 11:37 AM	#1010
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	My last post didn't seem to make much sense when I compare it to this page. I'd get a FL 2.41 lens (or at 30mm distance a FL 4 lens) I also remembered this post some time ago. So we should best be looking for an affordable machine vision prime.

December 30th, 2008, 12:58 PM	#1011
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Oscar, I understand that that would increase the size but I would still recommend you to use a pair of lenses to translate image from the "ground glass" plane to the sensor. The one closest to the sensor is a good quality short focal length C-mount lens - you may even consider 12mm mount ones - they are small, high resolution but low power. The second lens - 35mm one turned backwards, with focal length proportionally (~ 5-6 times) longer that the one attached to the camera. That lens does not to be anything super - F-number used will be proportionally higher than that of the first lens (only center part will be used), so some simple lens with small number of components should do the job. Such two-lens configuration is normally used when you need high quality image translation without a special lens.

December 30th, 2008, 07:23 PM	#1012
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Ah, now I remember you mentioned this before. I'll experiment with this tomorrow! I've made a lot of progress lately (actually been working every day on the camera this month) The rods support has now a mount for the netbook. This is the first step to make this whole thing portable. Tomorrow I'll post some pictures.

January 1st, 2009, 05:48 AM	#1014
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Wow that's a decent piece of equipment! How exactly does the new 35mm adapter work compared to the old microwax static groundglass one?

January 12th, 2009, 06:38 AM	#1017
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hi everyone, For those who don't know; the camogm2 camera software can record audio ( see wiki ) One audio USB device I came across that I'm considering to buy is this USB Dual Pre. It doesn't need additional drivers and I've read that it runs perfectly on Linux. It has direct monitoring headphone output and two XLR mic inputs with phantom power option. Any thoughts?

January 22nd, 2009, 07:46 PM	#1018
Steven Mingam Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 91	Tascam US-122 is a classic, very good quality for the value. I personally own the next model, the US-122L which is very nice & 24bits/96Khz but with poor drivers, and definitely no linux drivers :/ (Hope ?) You should look for Class Audio Usb device as they are part of the usb standard and as such, supported by linux.

January 23rd, 2009, 08:01 AM	#1020
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I'll receive the ART dual pre next week. I've chosen this one because it's exactly what we need (and not more than we need): a mic pre amp with phantom power and direct monitoring output. It's a lot like the Tascam US-122, but smaller. Of course it doesn't really matter what it looks like, but I think it would integrate very nice on the camera. Could be made detachable when you're using a sound operator. I'll let you people know when I have it and if it works as good on linux as I've read.