High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · June 20th, 2008, 10:10 AM

Yes, but anyway I can't understand why nobody shares the idea of a GigE interface.
That way we can easily connect a Mini-itx or whatever, and let developers work their way out.I feel that is a much more "open" solution than relying on the internal hardware limitations.

I've been quite frustrated about the limitations I have with the actual setup.
And I reaaly want to use the 353.No industrial camera Ive seen, despite having the needed interfaces, gives me "actual" control of the hardware without leting me stucked with their "crappy" "propietary" really more of the same software solutions.

Like Sumix fiddling with their encumbered "only Windows" "drivers".

All that doesn't make much sense to me, because if you are manufacturing cameras, your bussiness is that, making good cameras, not ruining your product under apile of bad/limited software.

Can anyone here make any sense out of those crazy marketing policies?

It seems to be the standard.

Sebastian Pichelhofer · June 23rd, 2008, 08:20 AM

Hey guys. My first post in this thread. It took me some time to read the previous 64 pages :)

I am both a professional filmmaker (mainly postproduction) and software developer. So the elphel is a terribly interesting project for me.

I think the project is well on track and the HDD or CF slot is definitely the way to go.

As far as I have read one big thing is still a pretty unexplored territory: The "On Camera" Interface, meaning all the buttons, knobs, dials, etc that you normally have on a video camera. Also the Elphel is still in a pretty small security camera case. Not the optimal solution for filmmakers.

Here are some thought about how to deal with this:
*) We need a bigger camera case designed specifically for filmmakers, maybe with a different (PL?) or even exchangeable lens mount part.

*) The Interface for the buttons and dials could work this way: The Axis EXTRAX should have a serial interface which we can use to connect an Arduino microcontroller board (costs around 30€) -> arduino.cc
This should give us up to 6 analog 10bit inputs for potentiometers (for knobs like exposure time or frame rate) and 14 digital inputs for on/off buttons (like record start/stop)
The buttons and potentiometers should only cost a few cents.

If we now also get some kind of display we finally freed ourselfs from the laptop.

Oscar please check your inbox, I sent you a PM some time ago.

Matteo Pozzi · June 23rd, 2008, 09:13 AM

hi ....some ago I've looked at arduino microcontroller too
but I've no skills about programming so :-(

But I've seen that now arduino have usb over serial port
and elphel have usb 1.0 that can be used for that goal
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Windows

Sebastian Pichelhofer · June 23rd, 2008, 09:23 AM

You are right!
That would also cover the power supply for the Arduino then.

Odd Nydren · June 23rd, 2008, 02:39 PM

..sorry to rain on the parade...

I've been programming the arduino for quite some time and its a really cool piece of hardware/software.

..that said - it doese'nt make sense using the arduino for this...as using the arduino means we have no or little camera feedback display possibilities. (build your own customized hardware displays anyone??) Add to this all the rapid changes happening with the elphel. It would take a lot of work to keep up, making a hardware interface and not a software one.

The elphel needs wifi - then we can control it using a browser on a smartphone/iphone.

That way the user interface can be re-designed to accomodate changes in just a few mins...as opposed to days using hardware. A software solution also that means people who do not program / design hardware can easily upgrade the user interface.

Just my 5 cents ;)

Oscar Spierenburg · June 24th, 2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Pichelhofer

Oscar please check your inbox, I sent you a PM some time ago.

Sebastian , somehow PM is disabled on my account. Can you sent an email? (lijsten@degalerie.nl) Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastian Pichelhofer

If we now also get some kind of display we finally freed ourselfs from the laptop.

I started another thread about that, because it could also apply to other DIY camera projects.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=124102

Thanks for your input. Interesting ideas!

Sebastian Pichelhofer · July 1st, 2008, 05:53 AM

Some Elphel Hardware News:

Andrey silently added a bunch of new pages in the official elphel wiki:

http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=10369

There is a new interface board: the 10369 - interface board with SATA port, 2 CF card slots, USB (4 ports), RS-232, 2 channels of optoisolated I/Os for synchronization, clock/calendar with super-capacitor backup power.

No official news are announced or if the board is available or what can really be done with it.

Andrey Filippov · July 1st, 2008, 01:18 PM

Yes, we've got these boards built at the factory as well as the camera enclosure parts as shown here - http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...3L_with_10369A and now testing everything (so far so good) so the factory can make complete assembly of the cameras.

We do not yet have 12V version -- there is a known issue (discovered by the guys from http://www.hackerbotlabs.com/) - these DC-DC converters do not seem to have undervoltage/overcurrent protection. It is not an issue in the standard PoE camera - PoE chip takes care of the protection itself, but this chip is bypassed in 12V or 24V non-IEEE802.3af compliant versions, so the 12V camera virtually went out in flames - dying 12V battery caused DC-DC to increase current (to maintain output power), got overheated, failed and had the input diode bridge burnt. We plan to use different model of the DC-DC converters that are supposed to have such protection, but not finished the testing yet.

Andrey Filippov · July 3rd, 2008, 03:31 PM

It has more details on the 10369 - http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5102023409.html

Andrey

Sebastian Pichelhofer · July 7th, 2008, 02:05 PM

Between...

Does anybody still have the BloodSimple(TM) codec source Zsolt Hegyi posted here about a year ago?

I am afraid he edited out the links in his original post.

Serge Victorovich · July 11th, 2008, 02:26 PM

Andrey, which Micron (Aptina) sensor ( 5MP 1/2,5" MT9P401 or 1,6MP 1/4,5" MT9M002) is better for shooting video (sport) 720p60 ?

Andrey Filippov · July 11th, 2008, 03:30 PM

I can not really help you - it is very difficult to get any information from the manufacturer, we only use now MT9T001 and MT9P001/MT9P031 (seem to be the same chip, just different marketing name). We will have MT9P001 with BAR coating - among others that will improve performance when you have sun in the view (standard sensors have plain glass)

Andrey Filippov · July 15th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

It has more details on the 10369 - http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5102023409.html

Here are two links to that article:
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.p.../07/05/1711221
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.../07/12/1851251

Sebastian Pichelhofer · July 25th, 2008, 07:52 AM

The new elphel 353 cameras can now write full HD 1920x1080p quicktime *.movs @ 25fps to internal HDD or cf card.

I updated the HD cinema camera Development elphel wiki page: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...evelopment_FAQ

Jose A. Garcia · July 29th, 2008, 04:29 PM

Can we see a sample clip Sebastian? If compression is low or at least not too visible, that could mean a huge step forward.

July 1st, 2008, 01:18 PM	#953
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	10369 Yes, we've got these boards built at the factory as well as the camera enclosure parts as shown here - http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...3L_with_10369A and now testing everything (so far so good) so the factory can make complete assembly of the cameras. We do not yet have 12V version -- there is a known issue (discovered by the guys from http://www.hackerbotlabs.com/) - these DC-DC converters do not seem to have undervoltage/overcurrent protection. It is not an issue in the standard PoE camera - PoE chip takes care of the protection itself, but this chip is bypassed in 12V or 24V non-IEEE802.3af compliant versions, so the 12V camera virtually went out in flames - dying 12V battery caused DC-DC to increase current (to maintain output power), got overheated, failed and had the input diode bridge burnt. We plan to use different model of the DC-DC converters that are supposed to have such protection, but not finished the testing yet.

July 3rd, 2008, 03:31 PM	#954
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	LinuxDevices article It has more details on the 10369 - http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5102023409.html Andrey

July 11th, 2008, 03:30 PM	#957
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Micron/Aptina sensors I can not really help you - it is very difficult to get any information from the manufacturer, we only use now MT9T001 and MT9P001/MT9P031 (seem to be the same chip, just different marketing name). We will have MT9P001 with BAR coating - among others that will improve performance when you have sun in the view (standard sensors have plain glass)

June 20th, 2008, 10:10 AM	#946
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Yes, but anyway I can't understand why nobody shares the idea of a GigE interface. That way we can easily connect a Mini-itx or whatever, and let developers work their way out.I feel that is a much more "open" solution than relying on the internal hardware limitations. I've been quite frustrated about the limitations I have with the actual setup. And I reaaly want to use the 353.No industrial camera Ive seen, despite having the needed interfaces, gives me "actual" control of the hardware without leting me stucked with their "crappy" "propietary" really more of the same software solutions. Like Sumix fiddling with their encumbered "only Windows" "drivers". All that doesn't make much sense to me, because if you are manufacturing cameras, your bussiness is that, making good cameras, not ruining your product under apile of bad/limited software. Can anyone here make any sense out of those crazy marketing policies? It seems to be the standard.

June 23rd, 2008, 08:20 AM	#947
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Hey guys. My first post in this thread. It took me some time to read the previous 64 pages :) I am both a professional filmmaker (mainly postproduction) and software developer. So the elphel is a terribly interesting project for me. I think the project is well on track and the HDD or CF slot is definitely the way to go. As far as I have read one big thing is still a pretty unexplored territory: The "On Camera" Interface, meaning all the buttons, knobs, dials, etc that you normally have on a video camera. Also the Elphel is still in a pretty small security camera case. Not the optimal solution for filmmakers. Here are some thought about how to deal with this: ) We need a bigger camera case designed specifically for filmmakers, maybe with a different (PL?) or even exchangeable lens mount part. ) The Interface for the buttons and dials could work this way: The Axis EXTRAX should have a serial interface which we can use to connect an Arduino microcontroller board (costs around 30€) -> arduino.cc This should give us up to 6 analog 10bit inputs for potentiometers (for knobs like exposure time or frame rate) and 14 digital inputs for on/off buttons (like record start/stop) The buttons and potentiometers should only cost a few cents. If we now also get some kind of display we finally freed ourselfs from the laptop. Oscar please check your inbox, I sent you a PM some time ago.

June 23rd, 2008, 09:13 AM	#948
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	hi ....some ago I've looked at arduino microcontroller too but I've no skills about programming so :-( But I've seen that now arduino have usb over serial port and elphel have usb 1.0 that can be used for that goal http://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Windows

June 23rd, 2008, 09:23 AM	#949
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	You are right! That would also cover the power supply for the Arduino then.

June 23rd, 2008, 02:39 PM	#950
Odd Nydren Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 88	..sorry to rain on the parade... I've been programming the arduino for quite some time and its a really cool piece of hardware/software. ..that said - it doese'nt make sense using the arduino for this...as using the arduino means we have no or little camera feedback display possibilities. (build your own customized hardware displays anyone??) Add to this all the rapid changes happening with the elphel. It would take a lot of work to keep up, making a hardware interface and not a software one. The elphel needs wifi - then we can control it using a browser on a smartphone/iphone. That way the user interface can be re-designed to accomodate changes in just a few mins...as opposed to days using hardware. A software solution also that means people who do not program / design hardware can easily upgrade the user interface. Just my 5 cents ;)

July 1st, 2008, 05:53 AM	#952
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Some Elphel Hardware News: Andrey silently added a bunch of new pages in the official elphel wiki: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=10369 There is a new interface board: the 10369 - interface board with SATA port, 2 CF card slots, USB (4 ports), RS-232, 2 channels of optoisolated I/Os for synchronization, clock/calendar with super-capacitor backup power. No official news are announced or if the board is available or what can really be done with it.

July 7th, 2008, 02:05 PM	#955
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	Between... Does anybody still have the BloodSimple(TM) codec source Zsolt Hegyi posted here about a year ago? I am afraid he edited out the links in his original post.

July 11th, 2008, 02:26 PM	#956
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Andrey, which Micron (Aptina) sensor ( 5MP 1/2,5" MT9P401 or 1,6MP 1/4,5" MT9M002) is better for shooting video (sport) 720p60 ?

July 25th, 2008, 07:52 AM	#959
Sebastian Pichelhofer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 112	The new elphel 353 cameras can now write full HD 1920x1080p quicktime *.movs @ 25fps to internal HDD or cf card. I updated the HD cinema camera Development elphel wiki page: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...evelopment_FAQ

July 29th, 2008, 04:29 PM	#960
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Can we see a sample clip Sebastian? If compression is low or at least not too visible, that could mean a huge step forward.