High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Serge Victorovich · August 25th, 2007, 09:55 AM

Patrick you can find a lot info there: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Patrick Jennings · August 25th, 2007, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge Victorovich

Patrick you can find a lot info there: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

i've pretty much read all that. it doesn't say anything about video-out or a computerless control module... so i guess that's a no....

the reason i asked is, if you still need a computer to control the camera, would there be any use for having onboard hard drives or CF?

Oscar Spierenburg · August 25th, 2007, 11:32 AM

Hello everyone,

I've been away for some weeks, but now I'm back and I'll try to find as much as time I can to 'dive' back into the Elphel 353 development.

Patrick, I don't think Andrey originally planned the 353 to be controlled from something else than a PC. As I remember, he told me it might be possible, but I guess he meant it for independent developers on this forum to build something themselves.
We also spoke about the hard drive module and I hope I will be given the opportunity to test it when it's ready. First of all, I'll start with the 353 itself.

Andrey Filippov · August 25th, 2007, 10:20 PM

I've got 3 working 10349 boards on hand and I'll send 2 of them to Switzerland on Monday - one will stay there and the other I would like to send to Oscar.
Currently out of the box it works with 1.8" HDD with zif-type (flex cable) connector - they say it is the same as in i-Pods. USB is also tested as well as rs-232.
Right now you still need computer to control the camera, but Swiss guys are trying to use USB-to-Blue Tooth adapter so cell phones could be eventually used to control the camera.

Patrick Jennings · August 26th, 2007, 01:27 AM

that's awesome news.

can the 1.8" drives cope with full quality MJPEG at 2058x1536 25fps ?
i did some rough calculations and it seems the MT9P001 can handle that.
I'm just worried about bandwidth limitations.

in the roadmap section of the wiki, the audio part is bare... but i found this http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=PCM2903
are there still plans to implement audio?

also, if we can record directly to a hard drive and control the camera from a phone, what will we use to view the footage? video-out anyone?

cheers

Wayne Morellini · August 26th, 2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Right now you still need computer to control the camera, but Swiss guys are trying to use USB-to-Blue Tooth adapter so cell phones could be eventually used to control the camera.

Sounds familiar. Who are these Swiss guys, sounds interesting? You can fit an primitive video feed over BT, but that would need the camera to generate an low res preview feed. Sounds like an good scheme, any more information.

Wayne Morellini · August 26th, 2007, 08:50 AM

Forgot to add:
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13284
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13177

For $200 good display and Linux PC processing solution for Elphel, plus flash. It is an shame they did not include DVD+DTV and FPGA model for the port DVD market.

Jose A. Garcia · August 26th, 2007, 11:51 AM

Wayne, do you really think the Eee will have enough power and bandwidth to store 24fps HD clips from the Elphel?

Les Dit · August 26th, 2007, 01:38 PM

Does this camera offer any cinema camera *must have* features, such as more bit depth than all of the consumer HD cams ?
Sorry to sound a bit brash, but other than using alternative codecs, I would really like to know if this project/thread is more than an excellent hardware and software project to tinker.
-Les

Wayne Morellini · August 27th, 2007, 06:49 AM

Yep, attaching hard drive or flash might be an negative, but if storage is in the camera, than all the Laptop has to do is use it's media processor to display the frames, and control the camera. When you look at it, PDA or phone could be sued, but then again hard to get something as good for the price of the PC. It is not an good solution, ergonomically, just cheap.

An good idea, would be any device that can be programmed to display and control with LCD and compatible IO, in an form factor that more suits camera use. Can anybody think of any, lie an media player?

Did anybody ever try out lossless grey scale compression of bayer on the 333?

Andrey Filippov · August 27th, 2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dit

Does this camera offer any cinema camera *must have* features, such as more bit depth than all of the consumer HD cams ?
Sorry to sound a bit brash, but other than using alternative codecs, I would really like to know if this project/thread is more than an excellent hardware and software project to tinker.
-Les

No, the camera has only 8 bits/component in the output file format. On the other hand (we discussed it earlier - see http://www.elphel.com/actualbits.html) for many sensors 8 bit is enough provided you encode them non-linearly (as is possible with Elphel cameras - 5 MPix sensor has 12 bit ADC). You may just use appropriate gamma, it is possible to add custom "curves" as in the FPGA such processing is implemented using 256-element (per color) programmable tables with interpolation.

BTW - we restored raw Bayer encoding where in each 16x16 macroblock each of the 4 color components is grouped in individual 8x8 block before JPEG compression (parameter "j" - http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Ccam.cgi#opt)

Steven Mingam · August 27th, 2007, 03:02 PM

A nokia N800 ? it's an "internet tablet" but with wifi only (so you need a ethernet>wifi adaptor, does that exist ?). I read about a guy controlling is Nikon with it for auto-bracketing without moving the camera (HDR shooting).

The screen resolution is quite nice (800x480) and it's running linux so you can hack it at will.

Lossless compression of 333 ? Do you mean in the fpga or just as a test on pc ?

Oscar Spierenburg · August 27th, 2007, 05:51 PM

Andrey, that's great news about the 10349 board. (also, interesting video of the Google tech talks)

Steven, I really like the development of the camera controlled by something like the Nokia n800.
Maybe it sounds strange, but don't forget that film cameras used to have optical viewfinders. If we forget the real time preview part, and leave that to an optical viewfinder, which i.m.o. still is the best way to focus and frame your shots.
This way you only need the 'camera controller' to show the actual exposure levels, white balance, gamma, contrast etc. Either show them as numbers or as simple graphics. If you know what you are doing, you know what the image would look like. You can also use some auto settings and hit something like 'hold' when you want to lock the settings at some point. It would be something like the left part in the Ajax interface, but even more simple.
Now lets really consider this, because the real time preview will always stay a problem and skipping it will also reduce the computing power of the camera controller.

Wayne Morellini · August 28th, 2007, 05:03 AM

The reason for 10 bit and digital viewfinders, is convenience and increased professionalism. With 8 bit you have to be more careful in filming, because there is less room to correct post, what only looked good during filming, or to enhance. With digital viewfinders it is easier to find focus thru res enhancement, cues, and exposure through zebra.

The camera would be used by an lot of people that are not high paid cinematographers that are good and experienced at picking them by eye.

Oscar Spierenburg · August 28th, 2007, 07:11 AM

I know all that of course. I just mean that real time preview would not be the first problem to look at. If you integrate the Elphel in a 35mm adapter it would be easy to build some optical viewfinder. The camera controller would be used as a enhanced exposure-meter and camera control.
If we have everything working, we can solve the preview than.

August 25th, 2007, 10:20 PM	#769
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	10349 boards I've got 3 working 10349 boards on hand and I'll send 2 of them to Switzerland on Monday - one will stay there and the other I would like to send to Oscar. Currently out of the box it works with 1.8" HDD with zif-type (flex cable) connector - they say it is the same as in i-Pods. USB is also tested as well as rs-232. Right now you still need computer to control the camera, but Swiss guys are trying to use USB-to-Blue Tooth adapter so cell phones could be eventually used to control the camera.

August 26th, 2007, 01:38 PM	#774
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	10 bits / chan? Does this camera offer any cinema camera must have features, such as more bit depth than all of the consumer HD cams ? Sorry to sound a bit brash, but other than using alternative codecs, I would really like to know if this project/thread is more than an excellent hardware and software project to tinker. -Les

August 25th, 2007, 09:55 AM	#766
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Patrick you can find a lot info there: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

August 25th, 2007, 11:32 AM	#768
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hello everyone, I've been away for some weeks, but now I'm back and I'll try to find as much as time I can to 'dive' back into the Elphel 353 development. Patrick, I don't think Andrey originally planned the 353 to be controlled from something else than a PC. As I remember, he told me it might be possible, but I guess he meant it for independent developers on this forum to build something themselves. We also spoke about the hard drive module and I hope I will be given the opportunity to test it when it's ready. First of all, I'll start with the 353 itself.

August 26th, 2007, 01:27 AM	#770
Patrick Jennings New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 18	that's awesome news. can the 1.8" drives cope with full quality MJPEG at 2058x1536 25fps ? i did some rough calculations and it seems the MT9P001 can handle that. I'm just worried about bandwidth limitations. in the roadmap section of the wiki, the audio part is bare... but i found this http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=PCM2903 are there still plans to implement audio? also, if we can record directly to a hard drive and control the camera from a phone, what will we use to view the footage? video-out anyone? cheers

August 26th, 2007, 08:50 AM	#772
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Forgot to add: http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13284 http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=13177 For $200 good display and Linux PC processing solution for Elphel, plus flash. It is an shame they did not include DVD+DTV and FPGA model for the port DVD market.

August 26th, 2007, 11:51 AM	#773
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Wayne, do you really think the Eee will have enough power and bandwidth to store 24fps HD clips from the Elphel?

August 27th, 2007, 06:49 AM	#775
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yep, attaching hard drive or flash might be an negative, but if storage is in the camera, than all the Laptop has to do is use it's media processor to display the frames, and control the camera. When you look at it, PDA or phone could be sued, but then again hard to get something as good for the price of the PC. It is not an good solution, ergonomically, just cheap. An good idea, would be any device that can be programmed to display and control with LCD and compatible IO, in an form factor that more suits camera use. Can anybody think of any, lie an media player? Did anybody ever try out lossless grey scale compression of bayer on the 333?

August 27th, 2007, 03:02 PM	#777
Steven Mingam Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 91	A nokia N800 ? it's an "internet tablet" but with wifi only (so you need a ethernet>wifi adaptor, does that exist ?). I read about a guy controlling is Nikon with it for auto-bracketing without moving the camera (HDR shooting). The screen resolution is quite nice (800x480) and it's running linux so you can hack it at will. Lossless compression of 333 ? Do you mean in the fpga or just as a test on pc ?

August 27th, 2007, 05:51 PM	#778
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Andrey, that's great news about the 10349 board. (also, interesting video of the Google tech talks) Steven, I really like the development of the camera controlled by something like the Nokia n800. Maybe it sounds strange, but don't forget that film cameras used to have optical viewfinders. If we forget the real time preview part, and leave that to an optical viewfinder, which i.m.o. still is the best way to focus and frame your shots. This way you only need the 'camera controller' to show the actual exposure levels, white balance, gamma, contrast etc. Either show them as numbers or as simple graphics. If you know what you are doing, you know what the image would look like. You can also use some auto settings and hit something like 'hold' when you want to lock the settings at some point. It would be something like the left part in the Ajax interface, but even more simple. Now lets really consider this, because the real time preview will always stay a problem and skipping it will also reduce the computing power of the camera controller.

August 28th, 2007, 05:03 AM	#779
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The reason for 10 bit and digital viewfinders, is convenience and increased professionalism. With 8 bit you have to be more careful in filming, because there is less room to correct post, what only looked good during filming, or to enhance. With digital viewfinders it is easier to find focus thru res enhancement, cues, and exposure through zebra. The camera would be used by an lot of people that are not high paid cinematographers that are good and experienced at picking them by eye.

August 28th, 2007, 07:11 AM	#780
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I know all that of course. I just mean that real time preview would not be the first problem to look at. If you integrate the Elphel in a 35mm adapter it would be easy to build some optical viewfinder. The camera controller would be used as a enhanced exposure-meter and camera control. If we have everything working, we can solve the preview than.