High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Jose A. Garcia · July 29th, 2007, 09:58 AM

It seems Hanvision's only working with Foveon sensors now. I just mailed them. Let's see what they can offer.

Any other Altasens distributor? You're right, maybe we can get small amounts that way.

Wayne Morellini · July 29th, 2007, 10:54 AM

I think Toshiba has an camera, but slow and costly, have link on my technical thread. But wait, they have announced they are working on things, so it should turn up further into the year. I think there was another company linked from the Foveon, or the hanvision site before (complicated to find some links on these sites).

Matteo Pozzi · August 1st, 2007, 07:49 AM

Reading the Red digital cinema site ( http://www.red.com/index.php ) I've found that people that have tryed it is amazed by the dynamic range of the camera that is 66dB so I've downloaded (once again) the data sheet of the micron 5mp sensor ( http://download.micron.com/pdf/flyers/mt9p001.pdf ) and I found that elphel have 70dB cool ...isn't it!?!

Jose A. Garcia · August 1st, 2007, 08:23 AM

Hi Mateo,

If you take a look at the New DIY HD Cinema Camera thread you can download clips captured with that sensor.

Wayne Morellini · August 3rd, 2007, 11:23 AM

I am very dubious of dynamic range claims. There is an document I saw an long time ago over at Dalsa, I think, that explains how these figures are not as good as they make out.

I used to think this dynamic range was basically reflective of the bit depth than actually latitude, but people seem to be saying differently. But all the time the db matches bit depth. Another thing is, what binning is the max being measured. I suppose somebody like Andrey would be able to clarify these things, what are they really meaning here by 70db. The 5mp shot I saw looked no better than an Sanyo HD1 camera in latitude, an lot of burn out. Of course, we expect better from binning.

With latitude I tend to look at well capacity (ceiling), noise factors (floor), QE/fillfactor, and any latitude extensions schemes first, to get an idea of what it might turn out.

Matteo Pozzi · August 3rd, 2007, 02:19 PM

I think you're right Wayne I've seen a document that combine bit depth only to dB latitude not othe spec of the sensor ! but I hope that the final result will be better than a Sanyo ....reading the Jose's thread I've found that rolling shutter issue is minimal if the sensor is set to 96MHz but looking at the image on the elphel wiki in particular this one: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...sample_01.jpeg you can notice the problem looking at every car ...hope that the sensor was set at a lower refrash rate ?48MHz?

Wayne Morellini · August 4th, 2007, 08:37 AM

Yeah, those cars do look more sporty than usual, but not too bad.

The larger version has more definition in the highlight detail.

That is more the contrast I would be looking for (you can brighten and stretch post color correction) not to much detail lost in the shadows, and not too much lost in the top end. Problem is that sun is shining through an cloud, so you have an big density filter over it. Look at the blue car down the bottom and you can see it's reflection. Car looks nice, can see inside of it and out, under somewhat and ther disk break mechanism, natural enough. Something bright/reflective next to the drain is burnt out. So it is probably dealing with half the stops of what it seems to be, then again, what aperture was used. Looks better than the 3 micron sensor from an few years back, but I will take an guess, is it 8 stops?

There is still the lowish SN, but if it could deal with harsh tropical midday, mid summer sun like that, it would be great to use.

Andrey Filippov · August 17th, 2007, 03:36 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
That was (and still is) keeping me really busy

Odd Nydren · August 18th, 2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
That was (and still is) keeping me really busy

Thanks for posting that Link Andrey!
It was real cool to see and hear the guy who made elphel! :)

Is there any news on internal camera harddrive support? Just curious!!

//O.

Andrey Filippov · August 18th, 2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Thanks for posting that Link Andrey!

Is there any news on internal camera harddrive support? Just curious!!
//O.

We just received some (factory built) 10349 boards while in California but the first one has some hardware problems I could not resolve while in a trip. I do not think it is serious as the prototypes worked. Actually our developers have 2 prototype hard boards with hard drive for several months, so some software is already developed.

Serge Victorovich · August 19th, 2007, 09:07 AM

Andrey, Micron sensor MT9P401I12STC can be used ?
Product Flyer PDF

Andrey Filippov · August 19th, 2007, 07:55 PM

Probably yes, but from the brief look over the "Product Flyer" I do not see differences from the MT9P001 we are using now. Maybe they have some bug fixes (we noticed in MT9P001)

Serge Victorovich · August 21st, 2007, 08:09 AM

Price wil be the same around $150-200 in volume?
This sensor is only one marked as HD and for HD camcorder.

Odd Nydren · August 21st, 2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Actually our developers have 2 prototype hard boards with hard drive for several months, so some software is already developed.

ah! Interesting!!
I really look forward to hear any details on their progress!!

thanks for the update!

//O.

Patrick Jennings · August 25th, 2007, 09:05 AM

hey everyone!

i've just spent the last 4 hours reading all i can about this camera. it sounds awesome!!

Andrey, when do you think the hard drive/CF module will be ready?

and will the camera still need a computer to be setup and adjusted, or will it have a control module as well?

if you're planning on separating it from a computer entirely, will there be a video-out of some sort?

thanks
patrick

August 17th, 2007, 03:36 PM	#758
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	My presentation at Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0 That was (and still is) keeping me really busy

August 19th, 2007, 07:55 PM	#762
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Probably yes, but from the brief look over the "Product Flyer" I do not see differences from the MT9P001 we are using now. Maybe they have some bug fixes (we noticed in MT9P001) Last edited by Andrey Filippov; August 19th, 2007 at 08:48 PM.

July 29th, 2007, 09:58 AM	#751
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	It seems Hanvision's only working with Foveon sensors now. I just mailed them. Let's see what they can offer. Any other Altasens distributor? You're right, maybe we can get small amounts that way.

July 29th, 2007, 10:54 AM	#752
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I think Toshiba has an camera, but slow and costly, have link on my technical thread. But wait, they have announced they are working on things, so it should turn up further into the year. I think there was another company linked from the Foveon, or the hanvision site before (complicated to find some links on these sites).

August 1st, 2007, 07:49 AM	#753
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Reading the Red digital cinema site ( http://www.red.com/index.php ) I've found that people that have tryed it is amazed by the dynamic range of the camera that is 66dB so I've downloaded (once again) the data sheet of the micron 5mp sensor ( http://download.micron.com/pdf/flyers/mt9p001.pdf ) and I found that elphel have 70dB cool ...isn't it!?!

August 1st, 2007, 08:23 AM	#754
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Hi Mateo, If you take a look at the New DIY HD Cinema Camera thread you can download clips captured with that sensor.

August 3rd, 2007, 11:23 AM	#755
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I am very dubious of dynamic range claims. There is an document I saw an long time ago over at Dalsa, I think, that explains how these figures are not as good as they make out. I used to think this dynamic range was basically reflective of the bit depth than actually latitude, but people seem to be saying differently. But all the time the db matches bit depth. Another thing is, what binning is the max being measured. I suppose somebody like Andrey would be able to clarify these things, what are they really meaning here by 70db. The 5mp shot I saw looked no better than an Sanyo HD1 camera in latitude, an lot of burn out. Of course, we expect better from binning. With latitude I tend to look at well capacity (ceiling), noise factors (floor), QE/fillfactor, and any latitude extensions schemes first, to get an idea of what it might turn out.

August 3rd, 2007, 02:19 PM	#756
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	I think you're right Wayne I've seen a document that combine bit depth only to dB latitude not othe spec of the sensor ! but I hope that the final result will be better than a Sanyo ....reading the Jose's thread I've found that rolling shutter issue is minimal if the sensor is set to 96MHz but looking at the image on the elphel wiki in particular this one: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...sample_01.jpeg you can notice the problem looking at every car ...hope that the sensor was set at a lower refrash rate ?48MHz?

August 4th, 2007, 08:37 AM	#757
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yeah, those cars do look more sporty than usual, but not too bad. The larger version has more definition in the highlight detail. That is more the contrast I would be looking for (you can brighten and stretch post color correction) not to much detail lost in the shadows, and not too much lost in the top end. Problem is that sun is shining through an cloud, so you have an big density filter over it. Look at the blue car down the bottom and you can see it's reflection. Car looks nice, can see inside of it and out, under somewhat and ther disk break mechanism, natural enough. Something bright/reflective next to the drain is burnt out. So it is probably dealing with half the stops of what it seems to be, then again, what aperture was used. Looks better than the 3 micron sensor from an few years back, but I will take an guess, is it 8 stops? There is still the lowish SN, but if it could deal with harsh tropical midday, mid summer sun like that, it would be great to use.

August 19th, 2007, 09:07 AM	#761
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Andrey, Micron sensor MT9P401I12STC can be used ? Product Flyer PDF

August 21st, 2007, 08:09 AM	#763
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Price wil be the same around $150-200 in volume? This sensor is only one marked as HD and for HD camcorder.

August 25th, 2007, 09:05 AM	#765
Patrick Jennings New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 18	hey everyone! i've just spent the last 4 hours reading all i can about this camera. it sounds awesome!! Andrey, when do you think the hard drive/CF module will be ready? and will the camera still need a computer to be setup and adjusted, or will it have a control module as well? if you're planning on separating it from a computer entirely, will there be a video-out of some sort? thanks patrick