High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Wayne Morellini · March 19th, 2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

I would stay away from the N1 if I where you...
..it looks really good - but the screen is very small and from what I hear it is very buggy. (a friend of a friend has it)

just thought I would give you the heads up ;)

//O.

Odd, I have just received my Neonode, looks like it is an N1m, but still checking.

Zsolt Hegyi · March 23rd, 2007, 03:09 AM

Hello!

I was disappeared in recent weeks because I've been busy shooting my first film - unfortunately with a rental camera. It was a Sony F350, not a bad one but I'm still waiting for the Elphel because in the summer we'll start our next project and I wouldn't like to shoot it with a rental camera again.

Lots of good ideas have popped up on this thread in the meantime. I'm glad that more and more people are involved in this project so I don't have to do all of it myself... As for my parts, I'm still sticking to the fpga implementation of the BloodSimple(TM) codec I described months ago. I'll soon test its performance with the raw (?) material (video?) someone posted here if that's still available, and then report the results.

Andrey, you're probably already testing the 353. Our original plans were using 1270x720 and that setup needed 13MB/s output data rate with 10bits (without LUT) and 2:1 compression. Can the camera transport this amount of data to the hard disk?

I'm thinking in 2:1 because that's the worst case scenario for this codec. In most cases the ratio will be around 2.5:1, but if we want to design with that we need to have some memory buffering for the harder-to-compress parts. The encoder itself will be lightning-fast because I plan to use multiple instances of it working in paralell so I'm more concerned about the other parts of the system. Andrey, how this part of the memory architecture works?

Zsolt

Noah Yuan-Vogel · March 23rd, 2007, 09:12 AM

I'm still confused as to how phil's videos have no rolling shutter artifacts, especially at 12fps. My understanding of the rolling shutter is that the cmos sensor takes the entire frame length to begin integration, so the last line doesnt begin integrating (exposing) pretty much until the first line is already done integrating for that frame. The only way to avoid this is through vertical blanking or framerate decimation, which are not options when you are running at the highest pixelrate and largest frame size of the sensor. So whats going on here? When I take 12fps videos at full frame with that micron sensor, the whole image is skewed even with the slightest movement.

Zsolt Hegyi · March 23rd, 2007, 03:16 PM

Noah, I've just watched the Elphel-Test-Ieper-Belgium3.avi video and it is definitely skewed. In the first half there's not much to see because there's no horizontal movement (altough there's some unreal distortion of the buildings running out on the right) but look at the cathedral when the car turns. Hopefully we won't have any of those with 1/60 readout speed instead of 1/12.

Zsolt

Noah Yuan-Vogel · March 23rd, 2007, 04:41 PM

Maybe it's just that I'm used to playing with my camera tethered to my computer in a small room where things are very close and I am using a longer lenses so movement is much greater so the skew seems much worse.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 23rd, 2007, 06:24 PM

Noah, the rolling shutter is very bad, as bad as can be... but at some frame rates, it is almost gone. I have to right down what setting are best.

-

I've just ordered my new laptop. The 333 is doing fine on my Intel Celeron 1.GHz with 1 gig ram, so it can only get much much better. I'll have a core-2 dual processor, 2 gig ram and a fast NVIDIA graphics card.
I hope I can record with a higher Jpeg compression and no frame drops. I have successfully recorded at 90% Jpeg quality, but most of times it'll result in frame drops.

I'd still like to install Linux to the hard drive next to Windows, but I found lots of discussions on the internet with people having trouble with the Knoppix liveCDs installed to disk. So... should I install a Linux version dedicated to hard drive installation? Would it be difficult to get all the software right to use the Elphel on something else than Knoppix?

Richard Andrewski · March 23rd, 2007, 07:38 PM

HI,

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks and it looks really interesting. Anyway, I downloaded the Elphel-Test-Ieper-Belgium3.avi video last night and it won't play on my WMP 10. I tried downloading several codecs including theora and 264 but still won't work. What am I missing? MJPEG? Is there a free one?

By the way, am I the only one that thinks ethernet would be a greater standard for camcorder output in the future than HD-SDI and many of those others? Imagine a field recorder with an ethernet input for instance. Seems like wireless video transmission between a camera and recorder would also be easier to setup too.

Also, I wonder what would be the problem with creating live switching using ethernet? Have a switcher with 4 to 8 inputs bringing in some of these cameras like the Elphel 353 and switching them live and recording the output on the ethernet field recorder (or whatever).

Would ethernet be realtime enough to keep up with the demand for completely smooth, uninterrupted video with no glitches? A recorder wouldn't be much problem because you can smooth things out with buffers, etc. But a realtime switcher demands uninterrupted video streams to mix together, add titles and key and put the mixed result out for recording or broadcasting so any holdup in the packets coming across wouldn't give good results.

Thanks

Daniel Lipats · March 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM

I did some tests this evening with a vanilla letus35 on the 333. The results are too soft and a bit disappointing as far as what i would expect from HD. I closed the iris a bit to try to get more sharpness out of it, but i don't think any of the optics I have are designed for high definition imaging.

333
-exposure 40
-saturation 2
-sensitivity 2
-2000x800@85
-24 fps

Minolta 50mm f1.8 slr between f2.8-f5.6
letus35
333 zoom lens f1.8 @ f2.8

http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/qt.jpg
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/tyl.jpg
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/v8.jpg

(bumped up saturation to 3 for test)
http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/s3.jpg

I don't think im getting the full potential of the camera. I would really like to see some tests with a high quality c/cs lens, and a SGpro for conclusive results.

Zsolt Hegyi · March 24th, 2007, 12:48 AM

I think someone owning a 333 should experiment with the shutter speed: setting a smaller image size and going 24fps with 1/60 shutter and do extreme horizontal pans or filming cars running across the viewport. It would be interesting to see (or not see) the skewing.

Zsolt

Matteo Pozzi · March 24th, 2007, 09:04 AM

Daniel ...why are you disappointed by the result of the letus?!? ...I think that are far better from the one of every sd camera and you haven't used a good lens! let's show us some more pics and movie if you can

Daniel Lipats · March 24th, 2007, 10:45 AM

yes, i agree its far better then SD. I overstated by saying im disappointed, the images are satisfactory.

I neglected to show the worst of the batch.

http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/txt.jpg

I think the text should have resolved better. Its easier to read once you sharpen them in post but this is something im trying to avoid.

Wayne Morellini · March 25th, 2007, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

I'd still like to install Linux to the hard drive next to Windows, but I found lots of discussions on the internet with people having trouble with the Knoppix liveCDs installed to disk. So... should I install a Linux version dedicated to hard drive installation? Would it be difficult to get all the software right to use the Elphel on something else than Knoppix?

This runs from CD? There are programs that reproduce the Disks on hard drive, so it can be run from hard drive instead of from disk.

Wayne Morellini · March 25th, 2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Andrewski

HI,

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks and it looks really interesting. Anyway, I downloaded the Elphel-Test-Ieper-Belgium3.avi video last night and it won't play on my WMP 10. I tried downloading several codecs including theora and 264 but still won't work. What am I missing? MJPEG? Is there a free one?

By the way, am I the only one that thinks ethernet would be a greater standard for camcorder output in the future than HD-SDI and many of those others? Imagine a field recorder with an ethernet input for instance. Seems like wireless video transmission between a camera and recorder would also be easier to setup too.

Also, I wonder what would be the problem with creating live switching using ethernet? Have a switcher with 4 to 8 inputs bringing in some of these cameras like the Elphel 353 and switching them live and recording the output on the ethernet field recorder (or whatever).

Would ethernet be realtime enough to keep up with the demand for completely smooth, uninterrupted video with no glitches? A recorder wouldn't be much problem because you can smooth things out with buffers, etc. But a realtime switcher demands uninterrupted video streams to mix together, add titles and key and put the mixed result out for recording or broadcasting so any holdup in the packets coming across wouldn't give good results.

Thanks

Richard, I am sure Andrey can answer these questions better than I, and has security multiple feeds planned. Compressed is not to bad, except the compression delay, but for uncompressed even GigE maxes out an long way before 4:4:4 108025p feed. What would be needed is 10Gbe for an limited number uncompressed packed HD 60p feeds, or 100Gbe (for future backbone of many SHD and UHD feeds).

Richard Andrewski · March 25th, 2007, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

10Gbe for an limited number uncompressed packed HD 60p feeds, or 100Gbe (for future backbone of many SHD and UHD feeds).

I like the sound of that. Unfortunately, 1Gbe hasn't even rolled out en masse yet.

Wayne Morellini · March 26th, 2007, 04:46 AM

He, He, it is just that people get by with 100/10, so it hasn't been so widely adopted on the consumer end. 10 GigE is out, and preliminary 100 GigE might be defined. Here is some main boards with ten * GigE ports you might like.

http://www.win-ent.com/fullcatalog.htm
http://www.win-ent.com/IP-06049.htm
http://www.win-ent.com/PL-01033.htm
http://www.win-ent.com/MB-09015.htm

March 23rd, 2007, 07:38 PM	#577
Richard Andrewski Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shenzhen, China Posts: 781	HI, I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks and it looks really interesting. Anyway, I downloaded the Elphel-Test-Ieper-Belgium3.avi video last night and it won't play on my WMP 10. I tried downloading several codecs including theora and 264 but still won't work. What am I missing? MJPEG? Is there a free one? By the way, am I the only one that thinks ethernet would be a greater standard for camcorder output in the future than HD-SDI and many of those others? Imagine a field recorder with an ethernet input for instance. Seems like wireless video transmission between a camera and recorder would also be easier to setup too. Also, I wonder what would be the problem with creating live switching using ethernet? Have a switcher with 4 to 8 inputs bringing in some of these cameras like the Elphel 353 and switching them live and recording the output on the ethernet field recorder (or whatever). Would ethernet be realtime enough to keep up with the demand for completely smooth, uninterrupted video with no glitches? A recorder wouldn't be much problem because you can smooth things out with buffers, etc. But a realtime switcher demands uninterrupted video streams to mix together, add titles and key and put the mixed result out for recording or broadcasting so any holdup in the packets coming across wouldn't give good results. Thanks __________________ Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114 http://www.coollights.biz

March 24th, 2007, 12:48 AM	#579
Zsolt Hegyi Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 59	rolling shutter I think someone owning a 333 should experiment with the shutter speed: setting a smaller image size and going 24fps with 1/60 shutter and do extreme horizontal pans or filming cars running across the viewport. It would be interesting to see (or not see) the skewing. Zsolt Last edited by Zsolt Hegyi; March 24th, 2007 at 04:23 AM.

March 23rd, 2007, 03:09 AM	#572
Zsolt Hegyi Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 59	Hello! I was disappeared in recent weeks because I've been busy shooting my first film - unfortunately with a rental camera. It was a Sony F350, not a bad one but I'm still waiting for the Elphel because in the summer we'll start our next project and I wouldn't like to shoot it with a rental camera again. Lots of good ideas have popped up on this thread in the meantime. I'm glad that more and more people are involved in this project so I don't have to do all of it myself... As for my parts, I'm still sticking to the fpga implementation of the BloodSimple(TM) codec I described months ago. I'll soon test its performance with the raw (?) material (video?) someone posted here if that's still available, and then report the results. Andrey, you're probably already testing the 353. Our original plans were using 1270x720 and that setup needed 13MB/s output data rate with 10bits (without LUT) and 2:1 compression. Can the camera transport this amount of data to the hard disk? I'm thinking in 2:1 because that's the worst case scenario for this codec. In most cases the ratio will be around 2.5:1, but if we want to design with that we need to have some memory buffering for the harder-to-compress parts. The encoder itself will be lightning-fast because I plan to use multiple instances of it working in paralell so I'm more concerned about the other parts of the system. Andrey, how this part of the memory architecture works? Zsolt

March 23rd, 2007, 09:12 AM	#573
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	I'm still confused as to how phil's videos have no rolling shutter artifacts, especially at 12fps. My understanding of the rolling shutter is that the cmos sensor takes the entire frame length to begin integration, so the last line doesnt begin integrating (exposing) pretty much until the first line is already done integrating for that frame. The only way to avoid this is through vertical blanking or framerate decimation, which are not options when you are running at the highest pixelrate and largest frame size of the sensor. So whats going on here? When I take 12fps videos at full frame with that micron sensor, the whole image is skewed even with the slightest movement.

March 23rd, 2007, 03:16 PM	#574
Zsolt Hegyi Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 59	Noah, I've just watched the Elphel-Test-Ieper-Belgium3.avi video and it is definitely skewed. In the first half there's not much to see because there's no horizontal movement (altough there's some unreal distortion of the buildings running out on the right) but look at the cathedral when the car turns. Hopefully we won't have any of those with 1/60 readout speed instead of 1/12. Zsolt

March 23rd, 2007, 04:41 PM	#575
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	Maybe it's just that I'm used to playing with my camera tethered to my computer in a small room where things are very close and I am using a longer lenses so movement is much greater so the skew seems much worse.

March 23rd, 2007, 06:24 PM	#576
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Noah, the rolling shutter is very bad, as bad as can be... but at some frame rates, it is almost gone. I have to right down what setting are best. - I've just ordered my new laptop. The 333 is doing fine on my Intel Celeron 1.GHz with 1 gig ram, so it can only get much much better. I'll have a core-2 dual processor, 2 gig ram and a fast NVIDIA graphics card. I hope I can record with a higher Jpeg compression and no frame drops. I have successfully recorded at 90% Jpeg quality, but most of times it'll result in frame drops. I'd still like to install Linux to the hard drive next to Windows, but I found lots of discussions on the internet with people having trouble with the Knoppix liveCDs installed to disk. So... should I install a Linux version dedicated to hard drive installation? Would it be difficult to get all the software right to use the Elphel on something else than Knoppix?

March 23rd, 2007, 09:36 PM	#578
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I did some tests this evening with a vanilla letus35 on the 333. The results are too soft and a bit disappointing as far as what i would expect from HD. I closed the iris a bit to try to get more sharpness out of it, but i don't think any of the optics I have are designed for high definition imaging. 333 -exposure 40 -saturation 2 -sensitivity 2 -2000x800@85 -24 fps Minolta 50mm f1.8 slr between f2.8-f5.6 letus35 333 zoom lens f1.8 @ f2.8 http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/qt.jpg http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/tyl.jpg http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/v8.jpg (bumped up saturation to 3 for test) http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/s3.jpg I don't think im getting the full potential of the camera. I would really like to see some tests with a high quality c/cs lens, and a SGpro for conclusive results.

March 24th, 2007, 09:04 AM	#580
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Daniel ...why are you disappointed by the result of the letus?!? ...I think that are far better from the one of every sd camera and you haven't used a good lens! let's show us some more pics and movie if you can

March 24th, 2007, 10:45 AM	#581
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	yes, i agree its far better then SD. I overstated by saying im disappointed, the images are satisfactory. I neglected to show the worst of the batch. http://www.buysmartpc.com/333/letus/txt.jpg I think the text should have resolved better. Its easier to read once you sharpen them in post but this is something im trying to avoid.

March 26th, 2007, 04:46 AM	#585
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	He, He, it is just that people get by with 100/10, so it hasn't been so widely adopted on the consumer end. 10 GigE is out, and preliminary 100 GigE might be defined. Here is some main boards with ten * GigE ports you might like. http://www.win-ent.com/fullcatalog.htm http://www.win-ent.com/IP-06049.htm http://www.win-ent.com/PL-01033.htm http://www.win-ent.com/MB-09015.htm