High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

[Odd Nydren]

I would stay away from the N1 if I where you...
..it looks really good - but the screen is very small and from what I hear it is very buggy. (a friend of a friend has it)

just thought I would give you the heads up ;)

//O.

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

..regarding EOS lens spec - did you try to just email Canon and ask for the communication spec's? Sometimes what was impossible before - can change.

No, I just googled the matter

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Well surprise surprise - they asked me to sign a simple NDA regarding the specs and then ...

That is not an option for us - we would not be able to keep our circuit diagrams and code open

[Solomon Chase]

Andrey, check out the attached JPG of the chart I made.

I have researched most of micron, cypress, kodak, zoran, and other sensors. I am also a filmmaker and Visual Effects artist. This sensor is perfect for cinema quality.

Kai 4021 Highlights:
- Large 21.5mm imager size (filmmakers will love this, great DOF)
- 60 DB Dynamic Range
- No Rolling Shutter (important!)
- 24 FPS using FULL sensor width (16:9 Aspect Ratio)

the KAI-2093, KAI-2020, and KAI-1010 are also fairly large sensors with good image quality.

I don't know which of these sensors is cheapest, but I'm guessing they are a bit more than the Microns.

[Andrey Filippov]

Solomon,

It is probably possible to build a sensor front end for this sensor to work with 10347 board (instead of 10342 or 10344), but the ADC is slower - we can run only 25Mpix/sec for each channel (there are 2 channels/CCD outputs), not 40

[Solomon Chase]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Solomon,

It is probably possible to build a sensor front end for this sensor to work with 10347 board (instead of 10342 or 10344), but the ADC is slower - we can run only 25Mpix/sec for each channel (there are 2 channels/CCD outputs), not 40

At 25Mpix/sec per channel, that would reduce the framerate to 15fps.

In that case, you can drop some more vertical lines and get Cinema Aspect Ratio of 2.35:1. You could also do 16:9 at 1280 x 720 resolution.

The KAI-1011 has 20Mhz channel output at 30 FPS. That could work with your ADC hardware at full speed. The chip is also fairly large (9.1mm x 9.1mm) so DOF would be good with 2/3 lenses. (it's also probably cheaper than the KAI-2093)

just some thoughts.

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

No, I just googled the matter

ah...well..too bad.
sorry for wasting your time.

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

That is not an option for us - we would not be able to keep our circuit diagrams and code open

But of course!
..the reason I could accept it at the time was that I was only putting together a quick hack for an animation I did. obviously wouldn't work in an open source situation.

I was more thinking along the lines of it being so old and reverse engineered that they might had finally released it in the wild.

Obviously not. :(

Lets hope there is info enough out there to make it work anyways. time, effort and experimenting can do wonders.

//O.

[Andrey Filippov]

Solomon,

It will be possible to increase the frequency in some next generation sensor board (that will still work in 353 camera) - just in 10347 we targeted lower frequency.

I do not know the price of those sensors, but large CCDs are (naturally) expensive. 11MPix ones we use are about 100x compared to Micron CMOS ones.

Andrey

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Lets hope there is info enough out there to make it work anyways. time, effort and experimenting can do wonders.

I hope that with our hardware and (even rather basic) software more people will be able to play with different lenses and post results.

Spoiled by FOSS I feel really bad when I have to reverse-engineer (stupid waste of time) but it can be a fun game that I enjoyed myself many years ago - I was behind the Iron Curtain at the time :-)

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

I would stay away from the N1 if I where you...
..it looks really good - but the screen is very small and from what I hear it is very buggy. (a friend of a friend has it)

just thought I would give you the heads up ;)

//O.

Thanks for the heads up. Yeah, but I cannot get N1m model in this country, but at the price they are going at, it looks like an good buy. Besides I want the very small pocket feel (my previous monster Nokia phone is not good for tropical pockets because of weight ;)). The N2 is smaller again, screen around the same, would be fun if I could film HD with it, but doubt it. The mob selling it shows the N1m, but says it is N1, that is why I am not putting more money into it, an N1m is definitely worth more to me. I have found an smaller PDA phone again then the N1, it is around $76US. Definitely in the cute play thing category, but I wonder if they are using the same chipset as the N1, but different software, hardware setup.

If the right phone came along with HD video, I would be interested in seeing how my alternative 9Mb/s codec theories on it.

[Matteo Pozzi]

and why not use a nintendo ds with opera!?
now you can install linux on this device! it have wifi and a touch-screen, a microphone ....and it is cheaper than any other wifi device :-)

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

I hope that with our hardware and (even rather basic) software more people will be able to play with different lenses and post results.

I have no doubt they will. (!)

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Spoiled by FOSS I feel really bad when I have to reverse-engineer (stupid waste of time) but it can be a fun game that I enjoyed myself many years ago - I was behind the Iron Curtain at the time :-)

hehe makes me think of when I was a kid and hacked the commodore C64 to squeeze every last bit out of it... :) - it sure was a different time. I grew up in Sweden..not that far from old soviet - in many senses.

[Wayne Morellini]

He, He, Matteo, I wasn't going to suggest that because people might think it was too much. I don't know how capable the DS would be to control, decompress and display the data. In the Digital Cinema projects we mused with the idea of doing control of SD RAW through an Game Boy advance.

[Wayne Morellini]

Odd, I know this is off topic, but exactly how did they get the extended resolution, 80 column text mode, and sprite in the borders? I used to have fun with different ideas to extend things in those days, sort of similar to what we are talking about here of using consumer electronics as viewers fro the camera. I used to be in a community that had the most powerful processor design available (the Novix, latter it became the Harris RTX engine). Like plugging the Novix into an Atari 2600 cartridge, and letting the Novix do the graphics and sound control, with the Atari hardware acting as an viewer (I think the Atari might have lacked writes control from the cartridge to the chips for that. Another was to bypass the buss, and replace chips in the C64 or Amiga with socket in expansion boards that have extra performance (when the IBM CELL comes down in power requirements, it could even, theoretically, be place in and commodore 64 with an scheme like that). Fun times ;).

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

I have no doubt they will. (!)

Odd, next week we'll order some of the new 10349 boards (and post info) - it will have rs-232, usb (with hub), ide connector (44 pin, 2mm - for 2.5") and just some pin headers. So it will be possible to attach some prototype board to it, solder-wire it to the connections on the 10349, using that pin header for custom I/Os.

We will have some unused 10347 boards Rev 0 (after finishing with prototype I will update the layout before production run) - it will be possible to use the part with the lens interface. So cutting 10347, installing some components on it and soldering it on top of 10349 will make lens interface. Actually it is possible to attach that part of the 10347 board to the 16-pin connector of the 333 camera, but you'll need to add 3.3V->5V converter (and make a custom software build).

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

hehe makes me think of when I was a kid and hacked the commodore C64 to squeeze every last bit out of it... :) - it sure was a different time. I grew up in Sweden..not that far from old soviet - in many senses.

Current administration in this country (where I am now) seems to follow steps of the failed soviet system so familiar to me ... :-(

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Odd, I know this is off topic, but exactly how did they get the extended resolution, 80 column text mode, and sprite in the borders?

Extended resolution - no idea :) - sprites in the border, if I remember correctly I hooked an interrupt and then used NOP (no operation) commands to delay/sync up commands so they are done when the screen cathode ray is outside the frame...if that makes sense? :)

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

even, theoretically, be place in and commodore 64 with an scheme like that). Fun times ;).

Things like these are so much easier these days as we have the internet to draw information from...add to that all open source projects!!

Now when even hardware is turning open source - things are really getting interesting! :) - like elphel (!!)...and on a smaller scale, projects like arduino: http://www.arduino.cc - I use this one to control my Canon SLR for timelapse.