High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

[Andrey Filippov]

it is possible to add eos control to some universal extension board for the 10353, but CS-to-Canon adapter does not have electrical contacts so there is no easy solution for that.

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Andrey: I know we are not a large group of customers at the moment...but I'm sure that can change very quickly once there is a few working setups that show people what can be done! (especially if they are built with off the shelf standard parts which is what I intend to do)

I also believe it is very important to be able to use as many off-the-shelf components (like cell phone you suggested) as possible instead of building everything in-house. This will provide much more flexible, easily upgradeable solutions. And those solutions require less development resources

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Thanks for posting your camera developments so regularly!

You are welcome

[Odd Nydren]

Thanks for all the info Andrey! Some of it I knew...other things, I sure didnt :)

The main reason I'm interested in EF lenses despite the obvious problems with them being electronically controlled, is that I have several of them already with my canon 20D...another reason is that I hope to electronically control them in the future. (only focus can be manually controlled when they aren't powered...and some of the older ones not even that... as you most probably already know)

..also I saw the article on the wiki about your board after you first mentioned it and it sounds very exciting!

http://www.birger.com/Merchant2/merc...een=ef232_home

This company makes an adapter that can control and power EF lenses and adapts them to c mount...although it costs something like 1000USD. That totally brings it out of reach for me.

However...they sell a version without the controller part for something like 150 usd and that might still have the connector on it. This made me think I really should get an EF lens extension ring and see how hard it would be to modify it. (maybe this is what they do)

So the way I see it there are two possible solutions:

- try to add a lens connector to the EF CS mount adapter I found on Ebay...like you say it is without connector. (Probably too hard...and strays too far from the off-the-shelf thinking in my opinion.)

- look at modifying a canon EF extension ring.

I will order one of these and see what I can come up with.

A few questions:

1. When a lens is connected to your extension board and then connected to the 10353...can you send commands from a html browser to the lens? ..also - can you read values from it?

2. how much would that extension board be? and if/when will it be available for purchase?

please let me know! :)

//O.

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

This company makes an adapter ...

I have one.

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

- look at modifying a canon EF extension ring.

That was what I initially did myself.

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

A few questions:

1. When a lens is connected to your extension board and then connected to the 10353...can you send commands from a html browser to the lens? ..also - can you read values from it?

So far I do not have such board - lens control was implemented in our model 323C camera (just 323 used Nikon lenses with no control) and now it is part of the 10347 that I'm working with.

As the protocol is not published it requires some guesswork and experimentation to control particular lenses and our in-camera web page definitely allows this control (and reading back too). Here is the web page code (the application source is in the same directory) - it is not too helpful w/o the actual hardware.

http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/el...ml?view=markup

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

2. how much would that extension board be? and if/when will it be available for purchase?

I can not promise such board as there is no solution so far for production use of it (I explained the reasons in previous post). So I'll add such circuitry (similar to that of 10347 board) only if there will be some extra room on the board and if it will have 5V power (preferably - 6V, 5V is not enough for some lenses) - i.e. for USB port.

I'm also planning to make some universal extension board with fine-pitch connectors included for experimentation. The electrical part of the lens interface is rather simple so you could add it yourself if we'll not have the board you need (at least in near future).

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Wayne, I'm not yet working on wavelet compression - just having it in mind.I also count that somebody else could implement it with the help of our hardware. Dirac people had one of the first 333 cameras but it does not seem it was useful for them.

Maybe the FPGA inside the 333 was not enough, but then there is the 353. I can tell you, that the BBC would probably prefer an sensor with an SN ratio of 48db+ for 8bit, and 60db+ for 10bit, and similar latitude to an professional camera. These days, the SN and latitude of older cameras has been surpassed, the next generation should be great, but those old characteristics are important. The BBC had managed to do many great productions in Digital Betacam, and had problems with DVCPRO HD, so they probably expect smoothing that is like an HD version of Digital Betacam. If you wanted to talk to them, asking about an better sensor might spark their interest. I am sure there is an suitable cheap option without having to resort to an Altasens.

[Wayne Morellini]

I suppose that we will see the MJpeg Bayer solution first?


Thanks

Wayne.

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

I have one.

I have one.
That was what I initially did myself.

hehe I thought you did :)

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

I have one.
Here is the web page code (the application source is in the same directory) - it is not too helpful w/o the actual hardware.

http://elphel.cvs.sourceforge.net/el...ml?view=markup

Thanks! - still good to have a look at the code - gives me an idea of what I can do and not.

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

I have one.
The electrical part of the lens interface is rather simple so you could add it yourself if we'll not have the board you need (at least in near future).

Just so I get this right...IF there is room for the circuitry on the 353, there will be a connector on the board where I can solder wires for the lens connector in my EF extension ring? (Im thinking of using an EF extension ring - attach it to the EF <> CS adapter and then solder wires to the connector inside the extension ring - not the cheapest solution but it means no mechanical work, just some soldering...Ill just have to check so the gglass doesent come too far away from the lens when doing this)

If there is no room for the circuitry on the 353...I could then buy the 10347 board (timing control for KAI sensors right?) and that board will have the connector needed?

..the lens control isn't crucial to me - if we have WiFi support and direct to harddrive write of bayer "raw to grayscale" jpegs I will be happy as happy can be ;) ..but it would be really really cool if we could get the lens control to work as well!!

I read some info about the lens interface on the Birger site and it seems it would not be too hard to create an USB or serial interface...but I would very much prefer to build something that avoids circuitry and is integrated with your solution...that way the work I do can easily be copied and used by others! (not only hardware wise but gui, software etc)

thanks

//O.

[Wayne Morellini]

In the spirit of the phone thing.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/13/m...on-litigation/
http://www.meizume.com/showthread.php?t=888

Yes, that is 720*480 LCD resolution. I don't know how linux goes on these things.

Here are a few others, I view them as potential micro-controllers with displays and buttons, but an network to USB adapter is needed for most.
http://www.gp2x.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XGP

[Wayne Morellini]

Others:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html
http://www.slashgear.com/fic-linux-c...ity-072392.php
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...1&client=opera

www.neonode.com

Cute, interesting features, also other FIC ones interesting:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5201088922.html

http://forum2.mobile-review.com//showthread.php?t=56240

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4548

And the list of choices goes on, as long as they are cheaper then an UMPC.

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Just so I get this right...IF there is room for the circuitry on the 353, there will be a connector on the board where I can solder wires for the lens connector in my EF extension ring? (Im thinking of using an EF extension ring - attach it to the EF <> CS adapter and then solder wires to the connector inside the extension ring - not the cheapest solution but it means no mechanical work, just some soldering...Ill just have to check so the gglass doesent come too far away from the lens when doing this)
If there is no room for the circuitry on the 353...I could then buy the 10347 board (timing control for KAI sensors right?) and that board will have the connector needed?

Odd,

There is no room on the 10353 itself - it is stuffed as dense as I could. It does have connectors to the extension board but those connectors are really difficult to solder wires too ( http://www.hirose.co.jp/cataloge_hp/e53700036.pdf ). So we will probably make some universal boards for simple extensions that will have these connectors soldered.
10347 will not really work - it is a part of the CCD control and connects as other sensor boards (so instead of 5MPix CMOS board)

[Odd Nydren]

Ah - I see - that PDF made it all clear.

Well...I'm just happy to hear about the extension board!

This is what I really like about this open solution - the _luxury_ of being able to ask you things and to be able to add-on to the design later on - even after buying the base design. Add to that the ability to design my own gui...in such a simple way as editing flash & html. Brilliant!

Please correct me if I'm wrong - this connector will be on the 353...and once there is an extension board available, I can open my camera, add the board, solder some wires to the extension ring in my adapter...and then add the features in my GUI.

Voila! EF lens control!

I know there is a lot of pitfalls and things that might not work...but in theory? :)

To be quite honest - when I saw birger.com's 1.000USD pricetag on their EF lens control...I thought controlling EF lenses would be totally out of reach. Glad to be wrong!

Thanks

//O.

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Well...I'm just happy to hear about the extension board!

We did start working on such simple board that would allow fast prototyping.

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

This is what I really like about this open solution - the _luxury_ of being able to ask you things and to be able to add-on to the design later on - even after buying the base design. Add to that the ability to design my own gui...in such a simple way as editing flash & html. Brilliant!

Thanks for the nice words. And - there will be php too.

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

Please correct me if I'm wrong - this connector will be on the 353...and once there is an extension board available, I can open my camera, add the board, solder some wires to the extension ring in my adapter...and then add the features in my GUI.

Voila! EF lens control!

I know there is a lot of pitfalls and things that might not work...but in theory? :)

Yes, that is correct.

Originally Posted by Odd Nydren

1.000USD pricetag on their EF lens control...I thought controlling EF lenses would be totally out of reach. Glad to be wrong!

Electrically interface is simple. I believe the problem is that original manufacturer did not publish it - so even other lens manufacturers had to reverse-engineer it. Then - the first ones were modifying their cameras (probably by reverse-engineering those ones that were built by revers-engineering theirs...) to make those built by others lenses useless with the new cameras, etc. I believe it is rather stupid game and a waste of human creative work.

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

We did start working on such simple board that would allow fast prototyping.

If you decide to complete it - please let me know!
I would very much like to betatest and be apart of the development.

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

revers-engineering theirs...) to make those built by others lenses useless with the new cameras, etc. I believe it is rather stupid game and a waste of human creative work.

I agree totally.
On that note - I even believe that the patent system that was created to support inventors and engineers...is now obsolete in many ways. These days it's pretty much just a big idea stealing engine for big corporations with cross licencing schemes and entire departments with patent lawyers. This is something that really kills innovation. (its proven that most innovation happen in small companies...so no surprise the patent system has been hijacked by big corporations) ..but all that is another long discussion ;)

Long live open source! :)

..regarding EOS lens spec - did you try to just email Canon and ask for the communication spec's? Sometimes what was impossible before - can change. An example of that is the Nikon consumer camera communication specs.

Everybody reverse engineered it because it wasn't available. A few years ago I decided to have a go at it (I was developing a control software for timelapse photography) I asked Nikon for the specs. Well surprise surprise - they asked me to sign a simple NDA regarding the specs and then handed me the complete dev info on CD's - at no cost. So things can change.

I look forward to more news about the 353 - until then - Ill be as patient as can be! :)

//O.

[Odd Nydren]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Others:
And the list of choices goes on, as long as they are cheaper then an UMPC.

A lot of interesting links Wayne!

ooh I really like the Meizu M8! :) - looks the way my fat little windows mobile SHOULD have looked...(my screen 20% smaller and the device 100% fatter ;)

However - the concept of using an "existing" device like a wifi phone as a camera gui makes a lot of sense I think. First off I get it cheap when I sign up for a contract with my phone company...and secondly its got loads of battery time. Beats any laptop. Plus - portable as portable can be.

That means instead of getting a laptop - we can spend more cash on the important part - the camera.

//O.

[Wayne Morellini]

I just put an bid on an neonode N1 today (they show N1m, so it is a bit confusing) but I want micro phone until I can get smoothing more suitable to replace this Palm TungstenW (Beautiful, but keeps turning itself on and even making calls :( ).

I have found lots of really interesting, cheap, Korean phones QVGA and pen based) including the one that looks like an PSP). The neonode N2 (77 x 47 x 14.7 mm, 70 g) the M8, and the Apple Iphone are some of my favorites at the moment (the Iphone might drop drastically before it is released). Nokia is coming out with game compatible phones, including a more game oriented model rumor. They also have an update of their keyboard phones (9500, 9300/1 series) and tablet phones but they are likely to be way over the top in price.

I forgot to mention, the cheapest Palm is also a possible target (USB network adaptor providing). Palm is said to be releasing a third category device next week.

Most of these functions could be done in camera by an button interface, and an display output from the preprocessing section.