High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Oscar Spierenburg · January 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM

I've asked Andrey if he has some time to clear some things up over here...
If it's 'plain' HTML language, I can possibly help myself.

Andrey Filippov · January 30th, 2007, 10:03 AM

I recommend using ccam.cgi, as we do not have anybody to support Video API now - the FPGA/drivers code went ahead and Video API is lagging.

The latest production firmware is 6.4.35 (available at SourceForge), default streamer (working) is made by Khlutchin, you may try it with the computer boot from our Live CD/DVD were the Mozilla plugin to view RTP stream with MPlayer is already configured.
With MS Windows you may try the software - it should probably work with the same firmware 6.4.35.

https://sourceforge.net/project/show...kage_id=217626

Meanwhile I'm busy with the 353 - I had to change the design to use "large page" flash as the ones I used became obsolete in several months after they appeared. a good thing - the new flash is twice bigger (128MB).

Now I'm testing the second revision of the 353 board - hope to get real images from it next week.

I also released multiple other boards that will work in/with the 353 camera - these boards will be tested in the next couple months:

10357 - a board with 8 CF slots - with 16GB cards it will be possible to have 128GB solid state "disk";
10359 - splitter/preprocessor for up to 3 sensor boards. It has the same FPGA+DDR SDRAM as the main board and should be capable of some image pre-processing (like some of 3-d extraction from stereo imagers). I plan it to make an optical camera position tracker to compensate for the ERS distortion effect. This board is connected to the 10353 board instead of a single sensor board and has 3 of the same flex cable connectors fro connecting up to 3 sensor boards to it.
Next 3 boards are designed for non-video applications (2 fps, 11 and 16 MPix with Kodak KAI-011002 and KAI-16000 CCDs) - improved from our model 323 camera:
10347 - Timing/control for KAI series sensors;
10342 - KAI-11002 sensor front end - in pair (sandwich) with 10347 allows connection of KAI-11002 to 10353 board;
10344 - same for the KAI-16000 sensor.

Igor Babic · January 30th, 2007, 11:23 AM

Andrey,
Can you make support for Kodak KAI-2093. This would be very interesting for us! If you can make this how much would cost 353 with this sensor? Anyway have you ever seen footage from this sensor? Is this any good for us (film making )?

I have also have interest for 353&KAI-11002, how much will be cost estimate for this combo?

Oscar Spierenburg · January 30th, 2007, 01:46 PM

But can we change the ccam.cgi and save it in some way.
If you look at the page of one of the online cameras as a HTML source, you see a very complex script, but still, it's a html webpage. Can it be edited and saved to the camera or LiveCD?

Andrey Filippov · January 30th, 2007, 07:39 PM

Oscar,

you can change ccam.cgi but you do not need to do it. It is a binary application that processes HTTP requests in the camera, requests themselves are generated from html+javascript (camvc.html, *.js) files in ftp://<camera_ip>/usr/html/ directory (visible as http://<camera_ip>). This directory resides in JFFS system and is write enabled so you may change/add files there. For experimenting I would recommend using /var/html directory (linked as /usr/html/var) that is in RAM-disk so it is perfectly safe to change data there (will be erased after reboot) - files will be visible as http://<camera_ip>/var/

Andrey

Andrey Filippov · January 30th, 2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Babic

Andrey,
Can you make support for Kodak KAI-2093. This would be very interesting for us! If you can make this how much would cost 353 with this sensor? Anyway have you ever seen footage from this sensor? Is this any good for us (film making )?

I have also have interest for 353&KAI-11002, how much will be cost estimate for this combo?

Igor, maybe it is possible, but I can not work on this right now. I can help if somebody will be eager to do that - it is likely that the 10347 will work as is, just 10342 should be replaced by a sensor-specific one.

I have the design files for the not-yet-released boards in the password-protected directory, but we do give access upon request.

As for the price - these cameras are more expensive, especially the senors themselves. I can estimate it may be 50% more than the 333 camera, plus the cost of the sensor.

Matteo Pozzi · January 31st, 2007, 08:08 AM

Many thanks Andrey so if we make an html page with buttons that link to a HTTP requests in the camera we can make a different GUI right? ok, you say that is better use ccam.cgi so the http request of the button of the new gui will have to "start" with http://<camera-ip-address>/admin-bin/ccam.cgi? + the parameter that they change like described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...2C_XML_or_VRML

or can we use also the link described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Video_API

How much, big (kb) will have to be the html page? is it possible to use .swf flash file to save space and make a better graphics? I've seen F4L (http://f4l.sourceforge.net/?q=node&from=30) and maybe.....

and last did you plan to produce a 5 mpixel camera based on 333 hardwere?

Andrey Filippov · January 31st, 2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

Many thanks Andrey so if we make an html page with buttons that link to a HTTP requests in the camera we can make a different GUI right? ok, you say that is better use ccam.cgi so the http request of the button of the new gui will have to "start" with http://<camera-ip-address>/admin-bin/ccam.cgi? + the parameter that they change like described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...2C_XML_or_VRML

Yes, that is correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

or can we use also the link described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Video_API

This API is lagging behind ccam.cgi ( - we do not have anybody to work on it now. As for ccam.cgi - I always upgrade it myself when I change drivers or FPGA code. So it may be ugly (being incrementally patched from our first model 303 camera), but it is current.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

How much, big (kb) will have to be the html page? is it possible to use .swf flash file to save space and make a better graphics? I've seen F4L (http://f4l.sourceforge.net/?q=node&from=30) and maybe.....

Actually - a lot. in the 333 it is probably around 8MB (flash is 16MB vs. 8MB in model 313 and the amount of software is not much higher). In 353 flash is 128MB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

and last did you plan to produce a 5 mpixel camera based on 333 hardware?

Yes, the 5MPix board was designed for 333 (and is supported by the current firmware). The only difference between 5MPix sensor board (10338) for 333 and 353 is the interface voltage and a single linear regulator IC on the board determines that.

Igor Babic · January 31st, 2007, 12:19 PM

Thanks Andrey, very good info, you are most helpfull.
So for KAI-2093 we are talking about under 3000$?
Is it GigE in your plans for 353 or any other model?
I think that you mentioned IDE interface before CF? Whats happend?
I like interchangeable CF idea but I like more fixed IDE.
Keep up your good work.

Solomon Chase · February 1st, 2007, 09:35 AM

I'm also interested in a camera using the KAI-2093 or KAI-4021 sensor.

Andrey Filippov · February 1st, 2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Babic

Thanks Andrey, very good info, you are most helpfull.
So for KAI-2093 we are talking about under 3000$?

I don't know the price of KAI-2093, but probably you are right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Babic

Is it GigE in your plans for 353 or any other model?

No, will stay with 100 for a while - it is supported in the CPU itself. I'm counting on better compression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Babic

I think that you mentioned IDE interface before CF? Whats happend?
I like interchangeable CF idea but I like more fixed IDE.
Keep up your good work.

The main 10353 board has IDE signals on a high-density 40-pin connector that will need just an adapter to connect HD. 10357 board connects to that IDE and has a programmable FPGA that initially will work as a simple multiplexor switching that bus to one-of-four , each having 2 (master/slave) CF cards connected (used in "true IDE" mode).

Of course you do not have to use that board and just connect a HD instead.

Oscar Spierenburg · February 1st, 2007, 01:26 PM

If we change the software html layout, is there a way to link the record button to a simple sound recording? Possibly with the output in the same directory as the video file?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · February 1st, 2007, 11:37 PM

Any additional board to get a PCI connection to the main board?

Matteo Pozzi · February 2nd, 2007, 02:43 AM

Hi Andrey so when will be abvailable the 333 + 5mpixel cmos micron sensor?! it will be the MT9P001I12STC sensor unit? how mutch will cost? but it will be better then the 3.1mpixel MT9M001 one? comparing the specifications of these units on micron's site you can find:

------------------- MT9P001 5mp ------------- MT9M001 3.1mp

Resolution: ______ 2,592H x 1,944V __________ 2,048H x 1,536V
RoHS: _______________ Yes _____________________ Yes
Pixel Size: ________ 2.2µm x 2.2µm ___________ 3.2µm x 3.2µm
Mega Pixel: _________ 5Mpixel ___________________ 3Mpixel
Optical Format: ____ 1/2.5 inch _________________ 1/2 inch
Frame Rate: ________ 12 fps ___________________ 12-93 fps
Master Clock: ______ 96 MHz ____________________ 48 MHz
Supply Voltage: ___ 1.7V-3.3V ___________________ +3.3V
Output: _________ 12-bit parallel _____________ 10-bit parallel
Shutter: ____________ ERS ______________________ ERS
Package: ___________ iLCC ______________________ PLCC
Chroma: ____________ RGB ______________________ RGB

Looking at that, resolution is better and output 12bit vs 10bit
but the other spec for me is better the 3mpixel, for what I know:
bigger pixel ---> better light sensitivity
1/2 inch is bigger then 1/1.25 inch ---> better light sensitivity
and about frame rate how many frame we can achieve with the 5mpixel at 1600x800 pixel? less than the 3 mp or the same? with the new sensor it will be fixed the problem due to the rolling shutter in witch, with large images there are some color/exposure difference from the right side and the left side of the picture? many thanks
Matteo

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · February 2nd, 2007, 01:20 PM

BTW if someone is interested Micron is sampling a 4 Mpixel 250 fps sensor.
Last week it was listed at their page.Now it is gone.
So if someone is in contact with that company, you can ask for it.

http://www.photographyblog.com/index..._image_sensor/

http://www.fast-vision.com/downloads...salessheet.pdf

Part Number: MT9M440C36MT

PS: Anyway I see I was a little late with this thing, cause it seems Wayne M. talked about it in July, 2004

January 30th, 2007, 10:03 AM	#392
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Interfacing the 333, 353 status I recommend using ccam.cgi, as we do not have anybody to support Video API now - the FPGA/drivers code went ahead and Video API is lagging. The latest production firmware is 6.4.35 (available at SourceForge), default streamer (working) is made by Khlutchin, you may try it with the computer boot from our Live CD/DVD were the Mozilla plugin to view RTP stream with MPlayer is already configured. With MS Windows you may try the software - it should probably work with the same firmware 6.4.35. https://sourceforge.net/project/show...kage_id=217626 Meanwhile I'm busy with the 353 - I had to change the design to use "large page" flash as the ones I used became obsolete in several months after they appeared. a good thing - the new flash is twice bigger (128MB). Now I'm testing the second revision of the 353 board - hope to get real images from it next week. I also released multiple other boards that will work in/with the 353 camera - these boards will be tested in the next couple months: 10357 - a board with 8 CF slots - with 16GB cards it will be possible to have 128GB solid state "disk"; 10359 - splitter/preprocessor for up to 3 sensor boards. It has the same FPGA+DDR SDRAM as the main board and should be capable of some image pre-processing (like some of 3-d extraction from stereo imagers). I plan it to make an optical camera position tracker to compensate for the ERS distortion effect. This board is connected to the 10353 board instead of a single sensor board and has 3 of the same flex cable connectors fro connecting up to 3 sensor boards to it. Next 3 boards are designed for non-video applications (2 fps, 11 and 16 MPix with Kodak KAI-011002 and KAI-16000 CCDs) - improved from our model 323 camera: 10347 - Timing/control for KAI series sensors; 10342 - KAI-11002 sensor front end - in pair (sandwich) with 10347 allows connection of KAI-11002 to 10353 board; 10344 - same for the KAI-16000 sensor.

February 2nd, 2007, 02:43 AM	#404
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Hi Andrey so when will be abvailable the 333 + 5mpixel cmos micron sensor?! it will be the MT9P001I12STC sensor unit? how mutch will cost? but it will be better then the 3.1mpixel MT9M001 one? comparing the specifications of these units on micron's site you can find: ------------------- MT9P001 5mp ------------- MT9M001 3.1mp Resolution: ______ 2,592H x 1,944V __________ 2,048H x 1,536V RoHS: _______________ Yes _____________________ Yes Pixel Size: ________ 2.2µm x 2.2µm ___________ 3.2µm x 3.2µm Mega Pixel: _________ 5Mpixel ___________________ 3Mpixel Optical Format: ____ 1/2.5 inch _________________ 1/2 inch Frame Rate: ________ 12 fps ___________________ 12-93 fps Master Clock: ______ 96 MHz ____________________ 48 MHz Supply Voltage: ___ 1.7V-3.3V ___________________ +3.3V Output: _________ 12-bit parallel _____________ 10-bit parallel Shutter: ____________ ERS ______________________ ERS Package: ___________ iLCC ______________________ PLCC Chroma: ____________ RGB ______________________ RGB Looking at that, resolution is better and output 12bit vs 10bit but the other spec for me is better the 3mpixel, for what I know: bigger pixel ---> better light sensitivity 1/2 inch is bigger then 1/1.25 inch ---> better light sensitivity and about frame rate how many frame we can achieve with the 5mpixel at 1600x800 pixel? less than the 3 mp or the same? with the new sensor it will be fixed the problem due to the rolling shutter in witch, with large images there are some color/exposure difference from the right side and the left side of the picture? many thanks Matteo Last edited by Matteo Pozzi; February 2nd, 2007 at 10:35 AM.

February 2nd, 2007, 01:20 PM	#405
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	BTW if someone is interested Micron is sampling a 4 Mpixel 250 fps sensor. Last week it was listed at their page.Now it is gone. So if someone is in contact with that company, you can ask for it. http://www.photographyblog.com/index..._image_sensor/ http://www.fast-vision.com/downloads...salessheet.pdf Part Number: MT9M440C36MT PS: Anyway I see I was a little late with this thing, cause it seems Wayne M. talked about it in July, 2004 Last edited by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn; February 3rd, 2007 at 06:44 AM.

January 30th, 2007, 09:27 AM	#391
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I've asked Andrey if he has some time to clear some things up over here... If it's 'plain' HTML language, I can possibly help myself.

January 30th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#393
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Andrey, Can you make support for Kodak KAI-2093. This would be very interesting for us! If you can make this how much would cost 353 with this sensor? Anyway have you ever seen footage from this sensor? Is this any good for us (film making )? I have also have interest for 353&KAI-11002, how much will be cost estimate for this combo?

January 30th, 2007, 01:46 PM	#394
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	But can we change the ccam.cgi and save it in some way. If you look at the page of one of the online cameras as a HTML source, you see a very complex script, but still, it's a html webpage. Can it be edited and saved to the camera or LiveCD?

January 30th, 2007, 07:39 PM	#395
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Oscar, you can change ccam.cgi but you do not need to do it. It is a binary application that processes HTTP requests in the camera, requests themselves are generated from html+javascript (camvc.html, *.js) files in ftp://<camera_ip>/usr/html/ directory (visible as http://<camera_ip>). This directory resides in JFFS system and is write enabled so you may change/add files there. For experimenting I would recommend using /var/html directory (linked as /usr/html/var) that is in RAM-disk so it is perfectly safe to change data there (will be erased after reboot) - files will be visible as http://<camera_ip>/var/ Andrey

January 31st, 2007, 08:08 AM	#397
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Many thanks Andrey so if we make an html page with buttons that link to a HTTP requests in the camera we can make a different GUI right? ok, you say that is better use ccam.cgi so the http request of the button of the new gui will have to "start" with http://<camera-ip-address>/admin-bin/ccam.cgi? + the parameter that they change like described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...2C_XML_or_VRML or can we use also the link described in http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Video_API How much, big (kb) will have to be the html page? is it possible to use .swf flash file to save space and make a better graphics? I've seen F4L (http://f4l.sourceforge.net/?q=node&from=30) and maybe..... and last did you plan to produce a 5 mpixel camera based on 333 hardwere?

January 31st, 2007, 12:19 PM	#399
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Thanks Andrey, very good info, you are most helpfull. So for KAI-2093 we are talking about under 3000$? Is it GigE in your plans for 353 or any other model? I think that you mentioned IDE interface before CF? Whats happend? I like interchangeable CF idea but I like more fixed IDE. Keep up your good work.

February 1st, 2007, 09:35 AM	#400
Solomon Chase Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Woodstock, Georgia Posts: 154	I'm also interested in a camera using the KAI-2093 or KAI-4021 sensor.

February 1st, 2007, 01:26 PM	#402
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	If we change the software html layout, is there a way to link the record button to a simple sound recording? Possibly with the output in the same directory as the video file?

February 1st, 2007, 11:37 PM	#403
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Any additional board to get a PCI connection to the main board?