High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

[Andrey Filippov]

I had do deal with some events of a personal matter - that caused slowdown with the 353 project. But now I'm again working on putting life into the first unit, CPU+network+memory are tested, now we have to write NAND flash boot loader for ETRAX FS - it turned out that it is not yet available from Axis.

For those who are interested, I can email circuit diagrams - I don't want to post it until I'm sure it does not have errors (2 already found/fixed so far).

We also made some noise measurements with Micron 3 and 5 megapixel sensors and plan to make this software as part of the camera firmware. 3 MPix has about 22ke- full well capacity, 5Mpix - about 10ke- with rather low readout noise - just above a couple electrons (with high settings of analog gain).

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

But now I'm again working on putting life into the first unit, CPU+network+memory are tested, now we have to write NAND flash boot loader for ETRAX FS - it turned out that it is not yet available from Axis.

Andrey, if I was able to find funding and time to help with this project, what would I need to purchase and roughly how much would it cost?

Thanks!

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

Andrey, if I was able to find funding and time to help with this project, what would I need to purchase and roughly how much would it cost?
Thanks!

Rob, when somebody wants to help with the project we usually provide hardware free of charge, but I don't have any extra 353 boards right now. The one I'm playing with is (by tradition) mostly built by myself - only BGA chips are mounted professionally - I don't have an oven.

As soon as I'll test the board electrically (with minimal software running) we'll be able to order a small batch assembled - then it will go to developers.

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Rob, when somebody wants to help with the project we usually provide hardware free of charge, but I don't have any extra 353 boards right now.

I would love to help, if I possibly can. In the meantime I will get familiar with the 333 source code. What else should I do/read up on?

Thanks!

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

We also made some noise measurements with Micron 3 and 5 megapixel sensors and plan to make this software as part of the camera firmware. 3 MPix has about 22ke- full well capacity, 5Mpix - about 10ke- with rather low readout noise - just above a couple electrons (with high settings of analog gain).

Andrey,

What did you find for noise average db and latitude, for 3 mpixel, and 5 mpixel binned to 720p?


Have you seen this brand, they have 170db latitude, and 0.001 lux sensitivity?:

http://www.hdrc.com/sensors.htm
http://www.hdrc.com/hdrctech.htm

Some of the demo pictures are pretty interesting, and I wonder when they will go HD.


Thanks

Wayne.

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

Guys, is there any way for me to get a small video clip of the bayer kind of 10 bit bitdepth?

Andrey, I know I can sound really stupid sometimes but I will make this question anyway.

Is there any advantage about using an ATMEL AVR 32 bit RISC instead of the actual ETRAX FS?

Second stupid question:

http://www.latticesemi.com/products/fpga/

Lattice has some interesting and inexpensive FPGAS with gigabit output/input, is there any use for them inside the Camera framework?

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn

Guys, is there any way for me to get a small video clip of the bayer kind of 10 bit bitdepth?

It's on my list of things to do :-)

[Andrey Filippov]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Andrey,

Have you seen this brand, they have 170db latitude, and 0.001 lux sensitivity?:

http://www.hdrc.com/sensors.htm
http://www.hdrc.com/hdrctech.htm

Some of the demo pictures are pretty interesting, and I wonder when they will go HD.

There is virtually no information there, but I am not impressed. The logarithmic transfer function is an old idea easily implemented in CMOS sensors. Sensitivity - it is not so easy to fool the Nature - quantum efficiency/amplifier noise levels of the modern CMOS sensors (like Micron's) are not that far from the theoretical limit.

0.001lx? - easy, any regular sensor can do it with long enough exposure.

[Zsolt Hegyi]

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

I would love to help, if I possibly can.
Thanks!

Rob, what is exactly do you want to develop for the camera?

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Zsolt Hegyi

Rob, what is exactly do you want to develop for the camera?

I am open to helping in any way I can, but in particular I am interested in implementing cinema-related features. Andrey mentioned that the board would have an IDE connector; I would like to help implement writing to disk.

Zsolt, you mentioned working on a lossless compressor for the FPGA (to reduce the size of the the raw image data) and I'd love to help with that as well. I've never had a change to do any FPGA work and it sounds like an interesting challenge.

I'd also like to write front-end (or is that back-end?) software to provide a viewfinder/heads-up interface. Perhaps this would involve a modification/plugin for ObscuraCap; I'm not sure yet.

[Rob Scott]

I just saw an announcement for Hitachi's new CinemaStar hard drives. They could be good choices to use with the 353.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

There is virtually no information there, but I am not impressed. The logarithmic transfer function is an old idea easily implemented in CMOS sensors. Sensitivity - it is not so easy to fool the Nature - quantum efficiency/amplifier noise levels of the modern CMOS sensors (like Micron's) are not that far from the theoretical limit.

0.001lx? - easy, any regular sensor can do it with long enough exposure.

I've seen a distinct lack of this outside of SD CCD's. It is also a matter of noise and gain, which CMOS is not as good at.

The QE of the Microns is about 40% or lower, isn't it (not to mention low fill factors)? I've seen a sensor with upto 90% QE, and experiments in recent years have succeeded in getting one photon to move two electrons (QE*2). Then there is loss from the color filter, and another advantage that the FF sensor had, was that because of the 100% fill factor, a microlens was not required, so very fast aperture lens could be used. Rai, that designed the Drake camera, could get F0.85 or something lens. So, there is a lot of latitude over what the Micron can currently do. If HDRC go HD can get some of this advantage I think it could be a sweet deal. I can't get a reply from them yet, I am interested in one of these cameras for my own project, and some research purposes.


Thanks

Wayne.

[Zsolt Hegyi]

I would like to help implement writing to disk.
Zsolt, you mentioned working on a lossless compressor for the FPGA

Implementing my encoder is a one-man job so I'd like to do it myself. But if you can do the disk recording part (can be tough if the processor is too weak to handle two streams), that's okay for me.

I'd also like to write front-end (or is that back-end?) software

The elphel already has the client which can be used as viewfinder, I suppose. It's not easy to write a streamer and our stream will be huge so, for starters, we should try to use the current theora stuff.

The problem is that the fpga will have to create two streams simultaneously and I don't know that the architecture and software will support that or not. Andrey?

And if we somehow manage to create two streams, the Theora will be very bad quality - I don't know if it will be enough for precise focusing. I'm afraid we'll have to modify the theora encoder too (maybe with losing all the color information) and that's also not very easy.

Zsolt

[Rob Scott]

Originally Posted by Zsolt Hegyi

Implementing my encoder is a one-man job so I'd like to do it myself. But if you can do the disk recording part (can be tough if the processor is too weak to handle two streams), that's okay for me.

Sounds good.

The elphel already has the client which can be used as viewfinder, I suppose. It's not easy to write a streamer and our stream will be huge so, for starters, we should try to use the current Theora stuff.

I agree, no reason to reinvent the wheel. Perhaps a custom version of VLC? I'll have to look into the options.

And if we somehow manage to create two streams, the Theora will be very bad quality - I don't know if it will be enough for precise focusing.

I was thinking perhaps two modes --

• Focus mode: No disk writes, high-quality Theora @ low frame rate (if necessary)
• Capture mode: Disk writes, lower-quality Theora @ full frame rate

What do you think?

[Zsolt Hegyi]

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

Sounds good.

You can develop the disk recording part with theora while I'm working on my encoder.

Originally Posted by Rob Scott

Focus mode: No disk writes, high-quality Theora @ low frame rate (if necessary)
Capture mode: Disk writes, lower-quality Theora @ full frame rate

Follow focus would be nice but if there's no other way then we must do it like you've said.

Zsolt