High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Robert Schiebel · June 30th, 2006, 03:55 AM

Andrey Filippov , thanks for clarifying circumstances.
Then I want to concentrate on the new.
I hope that, the 5Mpix sensor profides a higher framrate at ROI.
My dream is 1280x720@50... with the remaining rolling-shutter distortion >=50fps i could live.
Please let me know, if you have experience about it.

Thanks , neat thread here...
Robert

Matteo Pozzi · June 30th, 2006, 09:49 AM

Hi Andrey can you tell us how many MBytes/sec can transfer the next 353 model? (if you can) I'm looking for a notebook to use it so what I have to look for? 10/100 ethernet and 5400 hd is ok or I need more? the new macbook can run the live cd or not?
and about the software I've downloaded the live cd but without any camera I can't run the recording program! is there a way to view the graphic user interface (to see what can do by now and give you, if I or someone have,some ideas to make it better)? ....what I know are the pics on the wiki pages... I've look for the gui of the silicon imaging 1920... and I want to make something similar for the camera I'm planning to bild! so I've some idea for a touch screen user interface for a 7" monitor ...I don't know linux (for now) so what program I need, and to learn, to change the GUI of the elphel recording program? and is there someone that whant to help me?
Many thanks
and best reguards

Matteo Pozzi

Matteo Pozzi · July 10th, 2006, 04:46 AM

What is going on!? no news from none of you!
can't wait to see new pics videos or news!

Andrey Filippov · July 20th, 2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

What is going on!? no news from none of you!
can't wait to see new pics videos or news!

5MPix boards tested, more sensors and production batch of the revised boards ordered.

Really busy now making PCB layout for the 353 that will among others accomodate IDE port (I mean - it seems to fit nicely on the board without increasing dimensions).

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2006, 12:56 PM

Come again, are you saying that you will have direct to disk recording (I am surprised)? Can you outline the features and performance of this camera?

I am considering the BBC open Dirac wavelet codec on FPGA, to see if it is a suitable target for your camera. I discovered something rather neat, and up my sort of compression alley, 3D Wavelet compression, that compresses over time as well as the screen. I have been wondering what this 3D wavelet stuff was. I understand they use wavelets in security camera applications. If it can be applied to bayer, as cineform did with their wavelet, then 100Mb/s could give 720p bayer lossless, and 1080p visually lossless. Very higher performance.

Andrey Filippov · July 20th, 2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Come again, are you saying that you will have direct to disk recording (I am surprised)? Can you outline the features and performance of this camera?

It uses newer/faster Axis ETRAX FS, slightly (20%) bigger FPGA (largest in the same size package), twice each memory (64MB video + 64MB system + 32MB flash), USB 1.1 (available in the Axis chip) and ATA-6 (routed to a high density connector so adapter will be needed to connect actual disks). System design makes use of actual bus switching in addition to pseudo-DMA channels of ETRAX - that can provide 5x bandwidth between the FPGA and the system memory.
Small 12GB HDD can fit into the current body.

Matteo Pozzi · July 20th, 2006, 04:20 PM

wait wait...is it possible to record directly to hdd? what is the meaning of "USB 1.1 (available in the Axis chip) and ATA-6" ...we can connect a microphone for example or a video out signal through the usb is that the meaning ?!? thanks for the info
Matteo

Andrey Filippov · July 20th, 2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

wait wait...is it possible to record directly to hdd?

Yes, that's the goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

what is the meaning of "USB 1.1 (available in the Axis chip) and ATA-6" ...we can connect a microphone

Also - yes - the easiest way to get audio in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

or a video out signal through the usb

Don't think so - it is USB 1.1, not 2.0 and I don't know yet what will be the actual data rate from ETRAX FS available.

Solomon Chase · July 20th, 2006, 06:21 PM

Awesome. Keep us posted here on dvinfo :)

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

ATA-6 (routed to a high density connector so adapter will be needed to connect actual disks)...
Small 12GB HDD can fit into the current body.

Does not support S-ata, that is small connector.

But the actual performance data rate, or the compressor, and through the ata, and the drive, where do they all max out? Can all do 12.5MByte/s, or can it do more, like 20MB/s etc?

What is the current plan for this camera (seems portable) and what is current plan for compression engines?

This looks much more promising for video than current camera.

Wayne Morellini · July 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM

Have looked at ATA-6, needs DMA/UDMA to go above 16.6Mb/s if supported (upto 100MB/s) is this supported?

http://www.Seagate.com/training/ata/unit1/mt2p9.html

What we can look forwards to in the future, past hard disks. IBM is planning a Millipede SD memory card in the next year or so, uses atomic force microscope heads, 100GB ( I thought I read 150GB somewhere).

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/03/11/ib...lay/index.html
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/index.php?p=1143&tag=nl.e539
http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/.../vettiger.html

12GB, can be so small as to mount on the motherboard, and somebody is bound to put these things into a hard drive that uses a small laptop IDE interface.

Very good for me, as I plan game system and third world platform.

Well thanks, impressive.

Andrey Filippov · July 20th, 2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Does not support S-ata, that is small connector.
But the actual performance data rate, or the compressor, and through the ata, and the drive, where do they all max out?

I did not work with ETRAX FS yet (complete docs are available at http://developer.axis.com) so we'll see what it can provide. But compared to the current CPU it is twice faster and uses I/O coprocessor. On my side I design the hardware to use faster data transfer from FPGA to system memory (bursts of 400MB/sec, in 313/333 - 80MB/sec).

As for compressors engines - will use the same MJPEG and Theora, FPGA is just 1200K gates. I expect next year Xilinx will have something like Spartan 4 made on 65nm - then we'll be able to increase compressor performance.

Wayne Morellini · July 22nd, 2006, 03:04 AM

Sorry, I thought you mentioned improvements to compressor engine for next model?

I am currently finding out about an alternative FPGA design, would that be of use?

Andrey Filippov · July 22nd, 2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

Sorry, I thought you mentioned improvements to compressor engine for next model?

I am currently finding out about an alternative FPGA design, would that be of use?

It is a big project to develop FPGA code for compressor. Theora took me some 2000 hours, Dirac will likely take more and I don't have such a window in my near future.

Phil Stone · July 23rd, 2006, 04:58 AM

Some more 333 images of Provence, France (compressed, resized & made Mpeg4 friendly) http://www.tacx-video.com/images/HD2...oux/Nesp-route The crash jpeg has the car on the left thats about to pull out into us & smash our door in!

June 30th, 2006, 03:55 AM	#181
Robert Schiebel New Boot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Germany, near munich Posts: 14	re: sensors for 333 Andrey Filippov , thanks for clarifying circumstances. Then I want to concentrate on the new. I hope that, the 5Mpix sensor profides a higher framrate at ROI. My dream is 1280x720@50... with the remaining rolling-shutter distortion >=50fps i could live. Please let me know, if you have experience about it. Thanks , neat thread here... Robert

June 30th, 2006, 09:49 AM	#182
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Hi Andrey can you tell us how many MBytes/sec can transfer the next 353 model? (if you can) I'm looking for a notebook to use it so what I have to look for? 10/100 ethernet and 5400 hd is ok or I need more? the new macbook can run the live cd or not? and about the software I've downloaded the live cd but without any camera I can't run the recording program! is there a way to view the graphic user interface (to see what can do by now and give you, if I or someone have,some ideas to make it better)? ....what I know are the pics on the wiki pages... I've look for the gui of the silicon imaging 1920... and I want to make something similar for the camera I'm planning to bild! so I've some idea for a touch screen user interface for a 7" monitor ...I don't know linux (for now) so what program I need, and to learn, to change the GUI of the elphel recording program? and is there someone that whant to help me? Many thanks and best reguards Matteo Pozzi

July 10th, 2006, 04:46 AM	#183
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	What is going on!? no news from none of you! can't wait to see new pics videos or news!

July 20th, 2006, 12:56 PM	#185
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Come again, are you saying that you will have direct to disk recording (I am surprised)? Can you outline the features and performance of this camera? I am considering the BBC open Dirac wavelet codec on FPGA, to see if it is a suitable target for your camera. I discovered something rather neat, and up my sort of compression alley, 3D Wavelet compression, that compresses over time as well as the screen. I have been wondering what this 3D wavelet stuff was. I understand they use wavelets in security camera applications. If it can be applied to bayer, as cineform did with their wavelet, then 100Mb/s could give 720p bayer lossless, and 1080p visually lossless. Very higher performance.

July 20th, 2006, 04:20 PM	#187
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	wait wait...is it possible to record directly to hdd? what is the meaning of "USB 1.1 (available in the Axis chip) and ATA-6" ...we can connect a microphone for example or a video out signal through the usb is that the meaning ?!? thanks for the info Matteo

July 20th, 2006, 06:21 PM	#189
Solomon Chase Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Woodstock, Georgia Posts: 154	Awesome. Keep us posted here on dvinfo :)

July 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM	#191
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Have looked at ATA-6, needs DMA/UDMA to go above 16.6Mb/s if supported (upto 100MB/s) is this supported? http://www.Seagate.com/training/ata/unit1/mt2p9.html What we can look forwards to in the future, past hard disks. IBM is planning a Millipede SD memory card in the next year or so, uses atomic force microscope heads, 100GB ( I thought I read 150GB somewhere). http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/03/11/ib...lay/index.html http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/index.php?p=1143&tag=nl.e539 http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/.../vettiger.html 12GB, can be so small as to mount on the motherboard, and somebody is bound to put these things into a hard drive that uses a small laptop IDE interface. Very good for me, as I plan game system and third world platform. Well thanks, impressive.

July 22nd, 2006, 03:04 AM	#193
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sorry, I thought you mentioned improvements to compressor engine for next model? I am currently finding out about an alternative FPGA design, would that be of use?

July 23rd, 2006, 04:58 AM	#195
Phil Stone Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: UK Posts: 74	Some more 333 images of Provence, France (compressed, resized & made Mpeg4 friendly) http://www.tacx-video.com/images/HD2...oux/Nesp-route The crash jpeg has the car on the left thats about to pull out into us & smash our door in!