New DIY HD Cinema Camera Project

Wayne Morellini · June 30th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Yuan-Vogel

Are you building your own software interface for the camera? I did some stuff with the sumix M73 and its hardly a matter of having a camera that seems to match the 2k @24p specs...

During the previouse projects, Sumix was aware of the USB problems and was working on software that would deliver frames on time. But followup information we often get in the projects is usually very scant. Didn't they sort this issue by the time you got your camera Noah?

Igor Babic · July 1st, 2007, 07:38 AM

Wayne and Noah, I have info that streampix has solved direct to disc recording with sumix M73, so there is no longer short clips only and recording to ram with their software (and also with sumix software).

I also hope Jose that jour software that is coming with your micron board is capable of recordind to dics instead of ram.
Jose, I have give up because this is very time consuming process (Unless you are trying to make a product that you can sell...) and I need a camera for my curent projects. (but this also hasn't stop me from making other cool stuf, and I think I will have something that you can use in your project, very soon).

Jose A. Garcia · July 1st, 2007, 10:18 AM

Those are great news Igor. One of the worst points of the Sumix was the unability to record long clips at high resolutions.

I'm also looking forward to knowing more about that new project you mention.

If everything goes ok, I'll have my board tomorrow!

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 07:04 AM

Well... The board is here!

First impressions? Good news and bad news.

Good news: Very simple to use, so programmable you can almost get lost with so many parameters, great image, low noise, the rolling shutter is almost unnoticeable at 96Mhz...

At first I got scared cause I couldn't get more than 15fps at DV resolutions and 720p was like 8fps. Then after an hour or so trying out different configurations I got to a point where 720p was displaying at 40fps or even more. Debayering takes place in real time and you can capture directly to AVI. I haven't tried capturing RAW yet.

Now, bad news: I haven't been able to stablish a stable configuration (I have been playing with it for an hour more or less, so I need more time) but the worst part of it is that capturing video slows down performance dramatically. If the camera's displaying at 30fps it goes to 7fps when capturing. I hope I can find a way to solve this but I have to say I'm already thinking about the Elphel. It may be so slow cause it's trying to capture directly to AVI. I'll try different configurations and I'll tell you.

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 09:37 AM

Ok, I haven't been able to configure a fixed frame rate yet, but I've got my first clip at 720p and about 30fps.

I really like the image quality and motion feel. It's much more cinematic than anything else I've ever tested before but I still think I'll choose the Elphel after all. When shooting full HD and 2k it goes to 17-18fps. What the people at Micron told me was true. The sensor goes at about 30fps when configured at full HD but the bottleneck here is the USB interface. Besides that the only way I can capture at full speed is by choosing RAW capture or capturing to RAM, just like the M73 before the last upgrade.

The Elphel is also an upgradeable cam (I asked Andrey) and if I stay with this one the only thing I can upgrade is my computer.

I'll do a few more tests though. I have two weeks and I want to know everything I can do with this cam.

Take Vos · July 2nd, 2007, 10:34 AM

Jose,

Instead of recording full HD, have you thought about recording HD with 1:2.40 ratio, like 1920 x 800?

Cheers,
Take

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 11:29 AM

Of course I have. In fact I like that ratio more than 16:9. It looks more filmic. But I'm afraid till now anything more than 720p (or 1280x533 if you want 1:2.40) can't get to 24fps.

I'll try to optimize everything so the board doesn't have to do anything else than capturing (by avoiding all automatic calculations and setting everything manually).

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 11:36 AM

I forgot! One of the greatest things that I've noticed is that this sensor is 1/2.5" but you can actually see it has a narrower DOF. Of course nothing compared to film, but still looks better than video.

Well, that and real progresive!

Take Vos · July 2nd, 2007, 12:24 PM

Jose,

I believe RAW will be the only way to limit the bandwidth so you can capture on disk. You can do the demosaicing in post.

I have a 250 GB disk that will handle 60MB/sec continues transfer rate.

Cheers,
Take

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 01:08 PM

It's getting better! 1920x800 at 20fps! And it captures at that speed.

Orkan Bayram · July 2nd, 2007, 02:54 PM

As I understand you are using the SLR lenses you got. I didn't really get the process there, how do you send the light coming through the lens to the GG (this part is easy to understand:)) and then to the sensor (this is tricky)? Do you have some kind of a lens between GG and the sensor?

Btw I appreciate your work, and I would love to see some screengrabs and pictures of your setup maybe.

Have luck!

Jose A. Garcia · July 2nd, 2007, 04:51 PM

No Orkan, I'm not using the slr lenses yet. The board comes with a C-Mount lens and that's all I'm using right now.

Wayne Morellini · July 2nd, 2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor Babic

Wayne and Noah, I have info that streampix has solved direct to disc recording with sumix M73, so there is no longer short clips only and recording to ram with their software (and also with sumix software).

I also hope Jose that jour software that is coming with your micron board is capable of recordind to dics instead of ram.
Jose, I have give up because this is very time consuming process (Unless you are trying to make a product that you can sell...) and I need a camera for my curent projects. (but this also hasn't stop me from making other cool stuf, and I think I will have something that you can use in your project, very soon).

Great, how much does it cost to get the grade of stream-pix that does this? Has Sumix improved their software to do this as well?

Jose A. Garcia · July 3rd, 2007, 05:59 AM

Well... Definitely I have to look for other solutions. I have the Elphel there in case nothing works.

Wayne, I know you've been researching on this for quite a long time. I also know you were looking for a complete independent solution but I'm just looking for something to plug to the computer. Is there anything out there with good image quality and global shutter (if possible) that's able to deliver 2k 1:2.40 or 1920x800 at 24fps? I don't care if it's GigE, CameraLink... As long as the whole package's not more than $1,300-$1,500.

Thanks!

Igor Babic · July 3rd, 2007, 06:56 AM

Wayne, this is what my friend got from sumix support team:

"Re: [sumix.com #8710] Question regarding SMX-M72 camera
Dear
Good news.
We almost finished testing the fast recording mode. According to prelimenary experiments it allows to write app 30-32 frames per sec directly to HDD at resolution 1920x720. The recording is limited only by HDD capacity. The recorded file contains some simple header and sequence of RAW (bayer) frames.
We need to prepare new tools for conversion this format to avi or to a set of separate files (bmp, jpg...)"

This was on 15. May 2007. This came to late for us bacuse we have already started our production. Their site shows nothing new about this. So if anybody is interested please contact them, they are very responsive.

Jose, sory for offtopic, but there is one thing in this sumix email for you to consider:
"Direct recording to HDD can not getting on smoothly. From time to time there will be jerks and stops. The effect is due to Windows and incompatibility of data transfer speed of USB2 and HDD"
I dont know if this applys to your camera...

July 2nd, 2007, 10:34 AM	#51
Take Vos Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Amsterdam The Netherlands Posts: 200	Jose, Instead of recording full HD, have you thought about recording HD with 1:2.40 ratio, like 1920 x 800? Cheers, Take __________________ VOSGAMES, http://www.vosgames.nl/ developer of Boom Recorder and Mirage Recorder

July 2nd, 2007, 12:24 PM	#54
Take Vos Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Amsterdam The Netherlands Posts: 200	Jose, I believe RAW will be the only way to limit the bandwidth so you can capture on disk. You can do the demosaicing in post. I have a 250 GB disk that will handle 60MB/sec continues transfer rate. Cheers, Take __________________ VOSGAMES, http://www.vosgames.nl/ developer of Boom Recorder and Mirage Recorder

July 1st, 2007, 07:38 AM	#47
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Wayne and Noah, I have info that streampix has solved direct to disc recording with sumix M73, so there is no longer short clips only and recording to ram with their software (and also with sumix software). I also hope Jose that jour software that is coming with your micron board is capable of recordind to dics instead of ram. Jose, I have give up because this is very time consuming process (Unless you are trying to make a product that you can sell...) and I need a camera for my curent projects. (but this also hasn't stop me from making other cool stuf, and I think I will have something that you can use in your project, very soon).

July 1st, 2007, 10:18 AM	#48
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Those are great news Igor. One of the worst points of the Sumix was the unability to record long clips at high resolutions. I'm also looking forward to knowing more about that new project you mention. If everything goes ok, I'll have my board tomorrow!

July 2nd, 2007, 07:04 AM	#49
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Well... The board is here! First impressions? Good news and bad news. Good news: Very simple to use, so programmable you can almost get lost with so many parameters, great image, low noise, the rolling shutter is almost unnoticeable at 96Mhz... At first I got scared cause I couldn't get more than 15fps at DV resolutions and 720p was like 8fps. Then after an hour or so trying out different configurations I got to a point where 720p was displaying at 40fps or even more. Debayering takes place in real time and you can capture directly to AVI. I haven't tried capturing RAW yet. Now, bad news: I haven't been able to stablish a stable configuration (I have been playing with it for an hour more or less, so I need more time) but the worst part of it is that capturing video slows down performance dramatically. If the camera's displaying at 30fps it goes to 7fps when capturing. I hope I can find a way to solve this but I have to say I'm already thinking about the Elphel. It may be so slow cause it's trying to capture directly to AVI. I'll try different configurations and I'll tell you.

July 2nd, 2007, 09:37 AM	#50
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Ok, I haven't been able to configure a fixed frame rate yet, but I've got my first clip at 720p and about 30fps. I really like the image quality and motion feel. It's much more cinematic than anything else I've ever tested before but I still think I'll choose the Elphel after all. When shooting full HD and 2k it goes to 17-18fps. What the people at Micron told me was true. The sensor goes at about 30fps when configured at full HD but the bottleneck here is the USB interface. Besides that the only way I can capture at full speed is by choosing RAW capture or capturing to RAM, just like the M73 before the last upgrade. The Elphel is also an upgradeable cam (I asked Andrey) and if I stay with this one the only thing I can upgrade is my computer. I'll do a few more tests though. I have two weeks and I want to know everything I can do with this cam.

July 2nd, 2007, 11:29 AM	#52
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Of course I have. In fact I like that ratio more than 16:9. It looks more filmic. But I'm afraid till now anything more than 720p (or 1280x533 if you want 1:2.40) can't get to 24fps. I'll try to optimize everything so the board doesn't have to do anything else than capturing (by avoiding all automatic calculations and setting everything manually).

July 2nd, 2007, 11:36 AM	#53
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	I forgot! One of the greatest things that I've noticed is that this sensor is 1/2.5" but you can actually see it has a narrower DOF. Of course nothing compared to film, but still looks better than video. Well, that and real progresive!

July 2nd, 2007, 01:08 PM	#55
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	It's getting better! 1920x800 at 20fps! And it captures at that speed.

July 2nd, 2007, 02:54 PM	#56
Orkan Bayram New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Istanbul Posts: 9	As I understand you are using the SLR lenses you got. I didn't really get the process there, how do you send the light coming through the lens to the GG (this part is easy to understand:)) and then to the sensor (this is tricky)? Do you have some kind of a lens between GG and the sensor? Btw I appreciate your work, and I would love to see some screengrabs and pictures of your setup maybe. Have luck!

July 2nd, 2007, 04:51 PM	#57
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	No Orkan, I'm not using the slr lenses yet. The board comes with a C-Mount lens and that's all I'm using right now.

July 3rd, 2007, 05:59 AM	#59
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Well... Definitely I have to look for other solutions. I have the Elphel there in case nothing works. Wayne, I know you've been researching on this for quite a long time. I also know you were looking for a complete independent solution but I'm just looking for something to plug to the computer. Is there anything out there with good image quality and global shutter (if possible) that's able to deliver 2k 1:2.40 or 1920x800 at 24fps? I don't care if it's GigE, CameraLink... As long as the whole package's not more than $1,300-$1,500. Thanks!

July 3rd, 2007, 06:56 AM	#60
Igor Babic Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Zagreb, Croatia Posts: 171	Wayne, this is what my friend got from sumix support team: "Re: [sumix.com #8710] Question regarding SMX-M72 camera Dear Good news. We almost finished testing the fast recording mode. According to prelimenary experiments it allows to write app 30-32 frames per sec directly to HDD at resolution 1920x720. The recording is limited only by HDD capacity. The recorded file contains some simple header and sequence of RAW (bayer) frames. We need to prepare new tools for conversion this format to avi or to a set of separate files (bmp, jpg...)" This was on 15. May 2007. This came to late for us bacuse we have already started our production. Their site shows nothing new about this. So if anybody is interested please contact them, they are very responsive. Jose, sory for offtopic, but there is one thing in this sumix email for you to consider: "Direct recording to HDD can not getting on smoothly. From time to time there will be jerks and stops. The effect is due to Windows and incompatibility of data transfer speed of USB2 and HDD" I dont know if this applys to your camera...