New DIY HD Cinema Camera Project

Jose A. Garcia · September 5th, 2007, 08:30 AM

Hey! I was starting to think this thread was completely dead!

Yes, those cameras (appart from the Elphel) can deliver from 720p to 2K. Some are more expensive than others but I think all of those are above $5K and also need a computer to run. I mean, are they worth it? I know the Altasens sensor gives a great image quality but appart from the Silicon Imaging recording software, is that image quality so damn better than the Elphel to pay 13 times more?

Please, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what people at SI did with the SI2k Mini. They probably offered a much better option for independent filmmakers than even RED did, but we're talking about really low cost DIY 2K cameras here and I really think that's about $2500 computer included.

I think the Elphel is the best option so far. If only we could choose a visually lossless codec and make it easy to carry in terms of power source... If nothing else comes out in a month or so, I'll get myself one.

Anmol Mishra · September 5th, 2007, 08:05 PM

I was also looking at the sensor size for low light performance. The Elphel 353 has "only" 1/2" (the Elphel 363 - promises a 11Megapix or 16 Mp sensor for about 4K - release Q3 07) v/s the others that also have upto 1.2"
How much are the bigger sensors worth ?

Jose A. Garcia · September 6th, 2007, 04:36 AM

The Elphel 363 uses bigger sensors and larger resolutions but it can't deliver more than a few frames per second. That and the price are the main problems with big sensors. So far I believe you can't really find a 2/3" - 1" sensor that can deliver 2K or more @24fps for less than $3000. If I'm wrong, someone please say it. And if that sensor comes with a demo board, please say it louder.

Jose A. Garcia · September 6th, 2007, 05:01 AM

(Trying to restart the main subject here)

Going back to the Micron demo board, there was someone thinking about a software solution for it. The board sends the stream, the computer compresses it in real time and then records it to the HDD. The SI2k Mini uses exactly the same workflow but of course it uses GigE interface which has more than enough bandwidth to deliver the stream.

We know that if we overclock the usb port, it can actually deliver a 24fps stream at 2k RAW Bayer. My question is, can ANYONE write the piece of software needed to compress and record? Remember we had lots of info and sample coding from Micron. We just need a 2:1 compression ratio and the minicomputer specs go way down just by doing that. There're many opensource lossless and visually losless codecs out there.

Solomon Chase · September 6th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

The Elphel 363 uses bigger sensors and larger resolutions but it can't deliver more than a few frames per second. That and the price are the main problems with big sensors. So far I believe you can't really find a 2/3" - 1" sensor that can deliver 2K or more @24fps for less than $3000. If I'm wrong, someone please say it. And if that sensor comes with a demo board, please say it louder.

The Elphel with kodak KAI-2093 ccd could possibly come under the $3000 mark. But for 2K resolution you'd have to jump up to the Kodak KAI-4021 ($500+ more)

Jose A. Garcia · September 7th, 2007, 04:53 AM

Again, the Elphel with the Kodak sensor will deliver less fps. You can read it at the Elphel's wiki.

Solomon Chase · September 7th, 2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

Again, the Elphel with the Kodak sensor will deliver less fps. You can read it at the Elphel's wiki.

You are thinking of the larger 16mpix / 11mpix kodak sensors. The ones I listed can do 24-30fps

Kerry Van Iseghem · September 10th, 2007, 03:55 PM

Hi

My firm is currently designing a new LightWise family of cameras.

These will be 1394B which will sustain 512 Mbps of video data.
We will offer the Micron 5Mp sensor which will operate at up to 30 fps in 1920 x 1080 (1080P). This would be RAW Bayer Data. Or for fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface.

This camera will be priced at under $2K.

We have other potential HD options in development also =>

ISG has 3 potential products to have you review and provide feedback to me. Please let me know if you would be interested in any of these.

1)
LW-5-S-1394b-C = 5 Megapixel camera = with a ROI setting for 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$2K or less. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This will be an ISG standard product. Uses the Micron MT9P001 5Mp CMOS sensor with synchronous rolling shutter. Sponsorship could enable quicker availability.

2)
LW-KAI-2093-1394b-C = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter. We are looking for a sponsor to complete this design. This sponsor would invest $18K to complete the work. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This would be an identical camera as #1 above but with the Kodak CCD. Sponsor covers cost of the CCD sensor board and engineering.

3)
LW-KAI-2093-Ethernet-2NTSC = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 10/100 Ethernet and (2) NTSC ports with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in December. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter.. We are looking for a sponsor to complete the this design. This sponsor would invest $15K to complete the CCD sensor board and engineering work. You would need a compression ratio of 60 to 1 to send live data over the 10/100 ethernet interface.

In mid-2008 ISG could offer these same options above with Gigabit Ethernet interfaces.

Best regards,
Kerry

******************************************
Kerry Van Iseghem
Imaging Solutions Group
1387 Fairport Road, Ste 890,
Fairport, NY 14450 USA
Phone => 585-388-5220
Cell => 585-230-9090
Fax => 585-388-5223
E-mail => kerry@ISGchips.com
Website => www.ISGchips.com

Internet Messaging =>
Skype ID = kerry_vaniseghem
Yahoo Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem
MSN Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem
*****************************************

David Delaney · September 19th, 2007, 11:10 AM

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archi...070918comp.htm

This might help with the speeds.

Jamie Varney · September 19th, 2007, 10:59 PM

Wow, I have not visited this thread in quite some time, it looks like I have some catching up to do.

Just a quick update, bootstrap and I are still slowly working on a FPGA solution. It is still going to be some time before we see any results, but to say the least we are determined.

I find this strange, but right now it seems that the component we are having the hardest time locating is a C-mount PCB mount. Basically we just need a plastic or aluminum bracket that mounts to the PCB and holds a C-mount (or CS-Mount) lens the proper distance from the sensor. We have spent countless hours searching on google, but all the pages we can find that reference to them are 404'd. Does anyone know who makes or sells these reasonably?

Now it is time for me to start catching up on what I missed in this thread.

Alex Stewart · September 24th, 2007, 09:43 AM

I've been reading this thread for a while and thought Id finally say hello. Sunnex makes some nice PCB mount lens holders (mostly M12 I think) but they do have some adapters that will break out a M12 to a C-mount.

I to am working on a FPGA solution using a micron imager (MT9T001)
and my secret weapon is the ADV202.

What is everyone else working with right now?

PS ---> http://www.optics-online.com/
(sunnex's site)

Jose A. Garcia · September 24th, 2007, 11:45 AM

That's great Alex!

What interface are you using? Are you going to use any lossless codec? What have you managed to get so far?

As for me, I left the camera for a while. I have to start shooting a few projects soon so unless someone offers a new lossless 2K solution soon, I'll be buying the Elphel for now. I'll continue my project after I finish.

By the way, why did you choose MT9T001 instead of MT9P001? There's also a new P series sensor specifically made for HD video purposes.

Alex Stewart · September 24th, 2007, 12:21 PM

I went with the 3MP imager for availability (digikey had it in stock when I ordered my parts)

The ADV202 can actually be run in "lossless" mode. Although Im waiting to see actual captured frames be encoded and then decoded to see the quality/ if it really can.

As far as progress, Im starting the prototype right now. I just finished laying out a "headboard" pcb that Ill mount the chip, optics, and filtering caps onto. This board will plug into a Altera Cyclone II dev kit.

With that rig it should not be to bad to capture some frames and display them on a computer monitor. (I'm close to getting a dual ported ram interface working so the display modules can read while the imager is writing)

Basically right now Im concentrating on getting a live video stream out of the imager, then Ill be tackling compressing it and doing something with it...

-Alex

Jose A. Garcia · September 24th, 2007, 12:30 PM

Well... That makes you the most successful developer in this thread so far. Congratulations!

Is it simple to adapt that design to the P series sensors? What interface does the Altera Cyclone II have?

Please, keep us updated!

Alex Stewart · September 24th, 2007, 01:42 PM

The Altera Dev kit provides two 40 pin expansion ports, so I get ~70 GPIO lines. This is in addition to the peripherals built into the dev kit (SD card slot, 8MB SDRAM, VGA port etc)

As far as adapting to the P series, from what I know of Micron parts, the interfaces are fairly standard. As in I think it would be very easy to adapt the module Im working on to pull frames from the larger sensor.

Did I answer your question about the interface on the Altera board?
(not sure what your asking)....

If you were asking about programming it, the board has a built in byteblaster cable that lets you debug over a USB port.

PS - My website = www.GooseTechnologies.com
And more to the point, my always in Flux write up of all this:
http://goosetechnologies.com/page.php?pageid=5

September 5th, 2007, 08:05 PM	#362
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	Sensor Size I was also looking at the sensor size for low light performance. The Elphel 353 has "only" 1/2" (the Elphel 363 - promises a 11Megapix or 16 Mp sensor for about 4K - release Q3 07) v/s the others that also have upto 1.2" How much are the bigger sensors worth ?

September 10th, 2007, 03:55 PM	#368
Kerry Van Iseghem Tourist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Fairport, NY Posts: 2	ISG developing new HD cameras Hi My firm is currently designing a new LightWise family of cameras. These will be 1394B which will sustain 512 Mbps of video data. We will offer the Micron 5Mp sensor which will operate at up to 30 fps in 1920 x 1080 (1080P). This would be RAW Bayer Data. Or for fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This camera will be priced at under $2K. We have other potential HD options in development also => ISG has 3 potential products to have you review and provide feedback to me. Please let me know if you would be interested in any of these. 1) LW-5-S-1394b-C = 5 Megapixel camera = with a ROI setting for 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$2K or less. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This will be an ISG standard product. Uses the Micron MT9P001 5Mp CMOS sensor with synchronous rolling shutter. Sponsorship could enable quicker availability. 2) LW-KAI-2093-1394b-C = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 1394b (800) with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in January 2008. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter. We are looking for a sponsor to complete this design. This sponsor would invest $18K to complete the work. For fully processed images (24-bit RGB) you would need a compression ratio of 3 to 1 (which is LOSSLESS) to send live data over the 1394b interface. This would be an identical camera as #1 above but with the Kodak CCD. Sponsor covers cost of the CCD sensor board and engineering. 3) LW-KAI-2093-Ethernet-2NTSC = 2.1 Megapixel camera = 1920 x 1080 pixels = 30 fps full resolution with 10/100 Ethernet and (2) NTSC ports with Embedded JPEG inside camera. Potentially available in December. Small Quantity costs would be ~$4K Uses Eastman Kodak KAI CCD with global shutter.. We are looking for a sponsor to complete the this design. This sponsor would invest $15K to complete the CCD sensor board and engineering work. You would need a compression ratio of 60 to 1 to send live data over the 10/100 ethernet interface. In mid-2008 ISG could offer these same options above with Gigabit Ethernet interfaces. Best regards, Kerry **************************************** Kerry Van Iseghem Imaging Solutions Group 1387 Fairport Road, Ste 890, Fairport, NY 14450 USA Phone => 585-388-5220 Cell => 585-230-9090 Fax => 585-388-5223 E-mail => kerry@ISGchips.com Website => www.ISGchips.com Internet Messaging => Skype ID = kerry_vaniseghem Yahoo Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem MSN Messenger ID = kerry_vaniseghem ***************************************

September 19th, 2007, 11:10 AM	#369
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	USB 3.0 lauched. http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archi...070918comp.htm This might help with the speeds.

September 24th, 2007, 09:43 AM	#371
Alex Stewart New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 12	Greeetings! I've been reading this thread for a while and thought Id finally say hello. Sunnex makes some nice PCB mount lens holders (mostly M12 I think) but they do have some adapters that will break out a M12 to a C-mount. I to am working on a FPGA solution using a micron imager (MT9T001) and my secret weapon is the ADV202. What is everyone else working with right now? PS ---> http://www.optics-online.com/ (sunnex's site)

September 5th, 2007, 08:30 AM	#361
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Hey! I was starting to think this thread was completely dead! Yes, those cameras (appart from the Elphel) can deliver from 720p to 2K. Some are more expensive than others but I think all of those are above $5K and also need a computer to run. I mean, are they worth it? I know the Altasens sensor gives a great image quality but appart from the Silicon Imaging recording software, is that image quality so damn better than the Elphel to pay 13 times more? Please, don't get me wrong. I really appreciate what people at SI did with the SI2k Mini. They probably offered a much better option for independent filmmakers than even RED did, but we're talking about really low cost DIY 2K cameras here and I really think that's about $2500 computer included. I think the Elphel is the best option so far. If only we could choose a visually lossless codec and make it easy to carry in terms of power source... If nothing else comes out in a month or so, I'll get myself one.

September 6th, 2007, 04:36 AM	#363
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	The Elphel 363 uses bigger sensors and larger resolutions but it can't deliver more than a few frames per second. That and the price are the main problems with big sensors. So far I believe you can't really find a 2/3" - 1" sensor that can deliver 2K or more @24fps for less than $3000. If I'm wrong, someone please say it. And if that sensor comes with a demo board, please say it louder.

September 6th, 2007, 05:01 AM	#364
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	(Trying to restart the main subject here) Going back to the Micron demo board, there was someone thinking about a software solution for it. The board sends the stream, the computer compresses it in real time and then records it to the HDD. The SI2k Mini uses exactly the same workflow but of course it uses GigE interface which has more than enough bandwidth to deliver the stream. We know that if we overclock the usb port, it can actually deliver a 24fps stream at 2k RAW Bayer. My question is, can ANYONE write the piece of software needed to compress and record? Remember we had lots of info and sample coding from Micron. We just need a 2:1 compression ratio and the minicomputer specs go way down just by doing that. There're many opensource lossless and visually losless codecs out there.

September 7th, 2007, 04:53 AM	#366
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Again, the Elphel with the Kodak sensor will deliver less fps. You can read it at the Elphel's wiki.

September 19th, 2007, 10:59 PM	#370
Jamie Varney Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 36	Wow, I have not visited this thread in quite some time, it looks like I have some catching up to do. Just a quick update, bootstrap and I are still slowly working on a FPGA solution. It is still going to be some time before we see any results, but to say the least we are determined. I find this strange, but right now it seems that the component we are having the hardest time locating is a C-mount PCB mount. Basically we just need a plastic or aluminum bracket that mounts to the PCB and holds a C-mount (or CS-Mount) lens the proper distance from the sensor. We have spent countless hours searching on google, but all the pages we can find that reference to them are 404'd. Does anyone know who makes or sells these reasonably? Now it is time for me to start catching up on what I missed in this thread.

September 24th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#372
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	That's great Alex! What interface are you using? Are you going to use any lossless codec? What have you managed to get so far? As for me, I left the camera for a while. I have to start shooting a few projects soon so unless someone offers a new lossless 2K solution soon, I'll be buying the Elphel for now. I'll continue my project after I finish. By the way, why did you choose MT9T001 instead of MT9P001? There's also a new P series sensor specifically made for HD video purposes.

September 24th, 2007, 12:21 PM	#373
Alex Stewart New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 12	I went with the 3MP imager for availability (digikey had it in stock when I ordered my parts) The ADV202 can actually be run in "lossless" mode. Although Im waiting to see actual captured frames be encoded and then decoded to see the quality/ if it really can. As far as progress, Im starting the prototype right now. I just finished laying out a "headboard" pcb that Ill mount the chip, optics, and filtering caps onto. This board will plug into a Altera Cyclone II dev kit. With that rig it should not be to bad to capture some frames and display them on a computer monitor. (I'm close to getting a dual ported ram interface working so the display modules can read while the imager is writing) Basically right now Im concentrating on getting a live video stream out of the imager, then Ill be tackling compressing it and doing something with it... -Alex

September 24th, 2007, 12:30 PM	#374
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Well... That makes you the most successful developer in this thread so far. Congratulations! Is it simple to adapt that design to the P series sensors? What interface does the Altera Cyclone II have? Please, keep us updated!

September 24th, 2007, 01:42 PM	#375
Alex Stewart New Boot Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 12	The Altera Dev kit provides two 40 pin expansion ports, so I get ~70 GPIO lines. This is in addition to the peripherals built into the dev kit (SD card slot, 8MB SDRAM, VGA port etc) As far as adapting to the P series, from what I know of Micron parts, the interfaces are fairly standard. As in I think it would be very easy to adapt the module Im working on to pull frames from the larger sensor. Did I answer your question about the interface on the Altera board? (not sure what your asking).... If you were asking about programming it, the board has a built in byteblaster cable that lets you debug over a USB port. PS - My website = www.GooseTechnologies.com And more to the point, my always in Flux write up of all this: http://goosetechnologies.com/page.php?pageid=5