The best camcorder for 35mm adapters??

Tony Relph · November 27th, 2006, 03:00 AM

Thats the one Im waiting for - HVR-V1E. Any idea when its out in the UK???

Tony Relph · November 27th, 2006, 04:16 AM

Nevermind, just found out. 2nd December.

Tony Relph · November 27th, 2006, 10:06 AM

OK, now Im really confused. Look at this:

http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/showp...hp?prodid=1306

Now I still dont really understand PAL, NTSC, Interlaced and Progressive, Im still learning. Now I know that the Z1 is interlaced and can switch between PAL and NTSC yet this version of the Z1 is a PAL version. I thought they could do both? The description also says that is can capture DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second, in either SD or HD. Is this true? The numbers 25 and 24 appear, is this once converted? Can someone explain this to me very briefly please. Whats the best way to create the film look without losing resolution, is it just best to get a camcorder that either has 24p or 25p and forget about interlaced camcorders?

Chris Barcellos · November 27th, 2006, 11:45 AM

I'll attempt explanation:

Pal is a broadcast standard used in Europe, with 50 transmitted lines per frame interlaced.

NTSC is broadcast standard used in US, with 60 transmitted lines per fram, interlaced.

Interlaced means that in the first half of the frame, every every other of the lines making up the full picture are scanned and transmitted. During the second half scan, the other lines are are scanned. So you end up with 60 half frames (NTSC) or 50 half frames (PAL). So you actually have 30 full frames or 25 full frames per second.

The interlaced effect can result in a jagged appearance.

So progressive came along to try to resolve that. Progressive means that for each frame scanned is a full frame.

Certain film makers like progressive because it looks and acts more like film.

They like 24p because it simulates the standard 24 frames per second of traditional cinema. 24p is 24 full frames per second. Up until recently, in the HD offerings, 1280 x 720 24p (720p) was the only available true 24p offering. The Sony HDVs did have a Cineframe offering that simulates 30p, 25p, and 24p, but there was not a lot of satisfaction with the result. Sony and Canon are now doing things in their new models within HDV that are pushing 24 out to the 1080i envelope, and there is a lot of argument about what kind of resolution loss there is.

The recommendation I have heard for the Sony Z1 and FX1 HDV cameras is to shoot in regular 60i HDV, at 1/60 of a second, and that you can subsequently convert that easily for film out to a 24 frame output by currently available programs, either on your own, or by contracting out...

Toenis Liivamaegi · November 27th, 2006, 12:50 PM

I`d say that XH A1 would do quite well as NTSC version has 24f and the f mode will give you 24 progressive frames on tape. Resolution and noise reduction are the best on this cam. Lens sharpness full open is also better than on Z1.
As H1 and A1 have the exact same image quality then who dares to say that images from XL H1 frame mode are not usable for film out?

There was impressive low light comparsion between A1, HVX200 and even the PD170 in the A1/G1 forums - A1 was the best of course.
The Z1 which might have a slight edge in low light but it doesn`t have the resolution and progressive footage.

Cheers,
T

Tony Relph · November 28th, 2006, 01:45 AM

Having had loads of emails telling me to stick with the HVX200 I think I might just buy a new one (the last one was new but faulty) but instead of using P2 cards Im gonna get a new top spec MacBook Pro and capture directly to that (I need a new laptop anyway). Then when out on the field doing run and gun I might get a firestore but for now the MacBook Pro will do the trick.

Stephen Pruitt · November 28th, 2006, 08:45 AM

Big mistake Tony!

The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card.

You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage).

It is a killer system.

Stephen

Stephen Pruitt · November 28th, 2006, 08:47 AM

Big mistake Tony!

The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card.

You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage).

It is a killer system. I just hope I'm as happy with the Redrock M2. I ordered mine yesterday.

Stephen

Tony Relph · November 28th, 2006, 01:59 PM

I know HVX200 doesnt send 720P/24pN and 720P/30pN stream via firewire. Anyway Im gonna use 25p for most of my work. Most of the formats I'll be using are supported by FCP so I'm OK with that. I'll stream to external storage via firewire.

Phil Bloom · November 28th, 2006, 05:08 PM

am very tempted myself to get an hvx200. It does sound like perfect adaptor camera. Especially with the variable frame rate...can you record the variable frame rate in 720p then down convert it in camera to dv onto the deck?

Sam Jankis · November 28th, 2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

am very tempted myself to get an hvx200. It does sound like perfect adaptor camera. Especially with the variable frame rate...can you record the variable frame rate in 720p then down convert it in camera to dv onto the deck?

I've never done this, but I don't see why you couldn't.

Phil Bloom · December 3rd, 2006, 02:53 AM

Tony,

I have bought an HVX200. It's very nice and the picture quality uisng 25pn is superb. I am making it my main camera for using with my DOF adaptors. Although my Z1 is still going to be used too.

I have bought a p2 card and a firestore too.

Phil

Tony Relph · December 3rd, 2006, 04:02 AM

I will get a firestore due to the problems Ive had with them plus I dont see the point of the P2 cards at the moment, they are just too expensive, for the price of an 8 and 4gb card you can get the firestore which will give you an extra 88gb. I ordered a new HVX200 on friday so should get monday. Where in London are you based Phil?

Phil Bloom · December 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM

I'm near Richmond in West London.

Which Firestore did you get? I am wondering if the one made for the Pansonic is compatible with other cameras, or vice versa.

Tony Relph · December 3rd, 2006, 09:11 AM

Im getting the FS-100 the one made for the Panasonic. Ive heard that the cineporter will be out in the next few months but Im not sure about that also there are meant to be advantages. The FS-100 is affiliated with Panasonic so I think I'll stay with that. As far as I know the FS-100 will only work with DVCPRO HD cameras because of the built software in the firestore so I dont think it will would with any other camera.

November 27th, 2006, 03:00 AM	#16
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	Thats the one Im waiting for - HVR-V1E. Any idea when its out in the UK??? __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com Last edited by Tony Relph; November 27th, 2006 at 04:15 AM.

November 27th, 2006, 04:16 AM	#17
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	Nevermind, just found out. 2nd December. __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com

November 27th, 2006, 10:06 AM	#18
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	OK, now Im really confused. Look at this: http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/showp...hp?prodid=1306 Now I still dont really understand PAL, NTSC, Interlaced and Progressive, Im still learning. Now I know that the Z1 is interlaced and can switch between PAL and NTSC yet this version of the Z1 is a PAL version. I thought they could do both? The description also says that is can capture DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second, in either SD or HD. Is this true? The numbers 25 and 24 appear, is this once converted? Can someone explain this to me very briefly please. Whats the best way to create the film look without losing resolution, is it just best to get a camcorder that either has 24p or 25p and forget about interlaced camcorders? __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com

November 27th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#19
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I'll attempt explanation: Pal is a broadcast standard used in Europe, with 50 transmitted lines per frame interlaced. NTSC is broadcast standard used in US, with 60 transmitted lines per fram, interlaced. Interlaced means that in the first half of the frame, every every other of the lines making up the full picture are scanned and transmitted. During the second half scan, the other lines are are scanned. So you end up with 60 half frames (NTSC) or 50 half frames (PAL). So you actually have 30 full frames or 25 full frames per second. The interlaced effect can result in a jagged appearance. So progressive came along to try to resolve that. Progressive means that for each frame scanned is a full frame. Certain film makers like progressive because it looks and acts more like film. They like 24p because it simulates the standard 24 frames per second of traditional cinema. 24p is 24 full frames per second. Up until recently, in the HD offerings, 1280 x 720 24p (720p) was the only available true 24p offering. The Sony HDVs did have a Cineframe offering that simulates 30p, 25p, and 24p, but there was not a lot of satisfaction with the result. Sony and Canon are now doing things in their new models within HDV that are pushing 24 out to the 1080i envelope, and there is a lot of argument about what kind of resolution loss there is. The recommendation I have heard for the Sony Z1 and FX1 HDV cameras is to shoot in regular 60i HDV, at 1/60 of a second, and that you can subsequently convert that easily for film out to a 24 frame output by currently available programs, either on your own, or by contracting out... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 28th, 2006, 01:45 AM	#21
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	Having had loads of emails telling me to stick with the HVX200 I think I might just buy a new one (the last one was new but faulty) but instead of using P2 cards Im gonna get a new top spec MacBook Pro and capture directly to that (I need a new laptop anyway). Then when out on the field doing run and gun I might get a firestore but for now the MacBook Pro will do the trick. __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com

November 27th, 2006, 12:50 PM	#20
Toenis Liivamaegi Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tartu, Estonia Posts: 579	I`d say that XH A1 would do quite well as NTSC version has 24f and the f mode will give you 24 progressive frames on tape. Resolution and noise reduction are the best on this cam. Lens sharpness full open is also better than on Z1. As H1 and A1 have the exact same image quality then who dares to say that images from XL H1 frame mode are not usable for film out? There was impressive low light comparsion between A1, HVX200 and even the PD170 in the A1/G1 forums - A1 was the best of course. The Z1 which might have a slight edge in low light but it doesn`t have the resolution and progressive footage. Cheers, T

November 28th, 2006, 08:45 AM	#22
Stephen Pruitt Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 228	Big mistake Tony! The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card. You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage). It is a killer system. Stephen

November 28th, 2006, 08:47 AM	#23
Stephen Pruitt Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 228	Big mistake Tony! The HVX-200 is a wonderful camera, but the direct out to a MacBook Pro (which I also own) won't give you true 24pN (native). To do that you need a P2 card. You should definitely get at least one P2 card, as this makes shooting a breeze. I also own a P2 Store, and that makes transfering data between the P2 cards and the MacBook Pro a real pleasure. Using the program P2 Genie, I have had exactly ZERO difficulty getting data from the camera to the cards to the computer and into FCPro (the latest version of which directly imports all HVX-200 footage). It is a killer system. I just hope I'm as happy with the Redrock M2. I ordered mine yesterday. Stephen

November 28th, 2006, 01:59 PM	#24
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	I know HVX200 doesnt send 720P/24pN and 720P/30pN stream via firewire. Anyway Im gonna use 25p for most of my work. Most of the formats I'll be using are supported by FCP so I'm OK with that. I'll stream to external storage via firewire. __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com

November 28th, 2006, 05:08 PM	#25
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	am very tempted myself to get an hvx200. It does sound like perfect adaptor camera. Especially with the variable frame rate...can you record the variable frame rate in 720p then down convert it in camera to dv onto the deck? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

December 3rd, 2006, 02:53 AM	#27
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	Tony, I have bought an HVX200. It's very nice and the picture quality uisng 25pn is superb. I am making it my main camera for using with my DOF adaptors. Although my Z1 is still going to be used too. I have bought a p2 card and a firestore too. Phil __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

December 3rd, 2006, 04:02 AM	#28
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	I will get a firestore due to the problems Ive had with them plus I dont see the point of the P2 cards at the moment, they are just too expensive, for the price of an 8 and 4gb card you can get the firestore which will give you an extra 88gb. I ordered a new HVX200 on friday so should get monday. Where in London are you based Phil? __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com

December 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM	#29
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	I'm near Richmond in West London. Which Firestore did you get? I am wondering if the one made for the Pansonic is compatible with other cameras, or vice versa. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

December 3rd, 2006, 09:11 AM	#30
Tony Relph Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canary Wharf, London E14 Posts: 166	Im getting the FS-100 the one made for the Panasonic. Ive heard that the cineporter will be out in the next few months but Im not sure about that also there are meant to be advantages. The FS-100 is affiliated with Panasonic so I think I'll stay with that. As far as I know the FS-100 will only work with DVCPRO HD cameras because of the built software in the firestore so I dont think it will would with any other camera. __________________ Tony Relph. anthonyjohnrelph@hotmail.com