Is anyone using the HC1 w/ Letus FE

Alex Thames · November 10th, 2006, 07:36 PM

I've just made some test footage with all the suggested settings, and it looks nothing like film. It looks very unsaturated (duh, still not understanding why -3 for color), still extremely video-like, and nowhere near the DOF of 35mm (duh).

Suggestions?

Bob Hart · November 11th, 2006, 12:59 AM

My personal preferences.

If available in your camera.

Manual whitebalance always, and even as often as each setup.

Shutter 1/50sec or 1/60th. (Sometimes get away with 1/100th sec in 3 f-stop range low contrast bright conditions.).

Default colour saturation settings for the camera. The manuafacturer arrived at fair average best through a lot of R & D. Maybe try stronger colour saturation if you can later desaturate in post wthout causing any defects in post.

Sharpness? maybe up a notch or two, if it is camera default at 10 maybe 11 or 12 but no more. Too much fine moving detail such as groundglass grain may become unpleasingly evident and also burden the compression scheme of the camera which may create artifacts or reduce sharpness ( a contradiction in terms).

Exposure or brightness level manual settings preferable. - The opposite of negative film informal golden rule of if in doubt burn it out by one f-stop. Better to go under by one f-stop in video via a GG image relay system rather than to lose sharpness due to overbrightness.

Use camcorder to control brightness as much as possible as within reason, more light on the GG from the SLR lens will minimise any groundglass artifacts. An f1.8 SLR lens is better for sharpness at f2.8 - f4 than wide open at f1.8, also better for agile portability as maintaining a dynamic subject within the usable focal plane is not as critical.

Available light will determine how closed the aperture can be. The P+S Technik rule of thumb is generally that tighter than f5.6 risks yielding inferior results due to groundglass artifacts becoming evident.

Lighting conditions need to be more like those amendable to film origination. Outdoors, try to use the "magic hour' times of closer to morning and evening when the sun is lower and the natural lighting upon vertical surfaces is more direct.

Also when possible shoot with the sun behind you, try to keep the contrast range of the subject and background low. GG based image relay does not do so well against the light.

GG based image relay, whilst more filmic in the best circumstances is still not film but a visual aesthetic all of its own, a look and tool to be used in its own right. It is a unique toolset with its own rules and limitations you really need to explore by lots of practice and experimentation.

A suggested starter setting for outdoors, bright sunny late spring, sun behind camera :-

SLR lens f2.8.
ND if avalable on ND1.
Camcorder aperture if available f5.6 to f6.3.
Shutter 1/50th sec or 1/60th sec.
Manual whitebalance to greycard or in shade, to bright white paper. (Do not whitebalance under tree shade as this will skew your whitebalance and may introduce some unpleasant magenta casts to skin tones of you are forced to correct in post. If there is lots of vegetative reflectance, then whitebalance in that environment. When setting up close-ups and matching reverse shots, try to orientate the line of sight between the two subjects to be at direct right-angle to the source of the green reflectance and try to avoid white balancing between these takes as objects in between common to both takes will make the colourshift apparent.

Lastly, the suggestions are a personal preference and may not reflect established industry practices so do not afford much regard to my comments.

Alex Thames · November 11th, 2006, 02:47 AM

I've tried those settings before too, and they did not produce film like images either. Jung has produced several very film like videos with his HC1 in the past, so now he's giving tips, but when I try out his tips, it doesn't seem film like at all.

Bob Hart · November 11th, 2006, 12:13 PM

On more careful reading of posts, I think but am not sure, Jung's post refers to camera settings for achieving a film look direct-to-camera and not via a groundglass based adaptor. I could be wrong.

Paul Watkins · November 11th, 2006, 12:29 PM

On more careful reading of posts, I think but am not sure, Jung's post refers to camera settings for achieving a film look direct-to-camera and not via a groundglass based adaptor. I could be wrong.

Your right! He was giving me a alternative to my Letus FE. He said the image quality is degraded by the 35mm adapter. However, after I did a couple tests comparing his mthod of only using the sony HC1 and my method of using the Letus FE with the sony HC1, I think the slight trade off is worth it. Without the 35mm adapter the HC1 seems more detailed, but flat. This method would probably work better with a larger camera like the FX1, the focal distance of the smaller camera is just to much to accomplish the right DOF. The color setting he suggested is good if you want the washed look.

Alex Thames · November 11th, 2006, 02:04 PM

The thing you need to understand is that Jung has used the HC1 and produced EXTREMELY film like videos. That is why I want to know how to do this. He must be doing something in post as well, which I believe is color correction - but how? The camera settings he suggests are probably the best to take into post.

Paul Watkins · November 11th, 2006, 03:58 PM

Jung . What are you doing in post to obtain the look? The raw footage that I, and apparently others have obtained looks video-ish. I'd like to try you method in full. I did the settings change, but have lackluster results.Please give more detail , so I can perform a more accurate test using your method.

Rafael Lopes · November 15th, 2006, 09:32 AM

Hey Paul, how did you manage to use the letus35 with the HC1? You need rods for that, right? The HC1 has a 37mm filter tread and the letus is probably 55mm or 58mm, which would imply you need a step-up ring, making the connection to the HC1 not very strong. Do you have any trouble shooting run and gun with this combo?

cool footage btw!

Phil Bloom · November 15th, 2006, 10:48 AM

i struggled like crazy with my a1e and letus FE

Light loss indoors was impossible.

You have to have rods due to the 37mm thread, get cavision light ones really

Paul Watkins · November 15th, 2006, 02:45 PM

Do you have any trouble shooting run and gun with this combo?

Phil said it best. Get yourself a cavision set up if you want to run and gun. (rods, shoulder mount and grips)

Light loss indoors was impossible.

When I shoot indoors it is very complex. Initial I used a flood light pointed upward to increase the overall light bouncing the light off the ceiling. Then, I did position lighting (3 point) to get desired effect. Keep camera at 60 fps, change f stop or exposure on camera so light doesn't over power the scene. Problem is the extreme heat. I am attempting to build a DIY light system that will cut down on heat and the yellow hue. I'm taking a trip to home depot this week. If the HC1 or the A1 is starved for light the results are grainy and just bad. But if you create a environment that requires you limited exposure. You can get some nice footage.

Also, run and gun in low light with the A1 or HC1 is light trying to thread a needle with a jump rope. It's not going to happen.

Bruno Donnet · December 8th, 2006, 09:19 AM

Guys, you can play with Colors/WB, Exposure settings, etc...

BUT REMEMBER that the number of notches are different on a Sony A1 and a on Sony HC1: so saying -3 or +2 means nothing if the model of camera is not mentioned...

On a A1: the range is from 0 to 16, with 8 at the middle for all the settings with notches.
On a HC1: the range is from 0 to 8, with 4 at the middle for all the settings except the 'LCD colors' (not clear why Sony kept the A1 precision for the LCD...).

So if somebody says -2 for 'Colors shift' on a A1, that means only '-1' on a HC1, or if somebody says +2 on WB on a HC1, that means +4 on a A1,...etc.
And if somebody says -3 on a A1,...errk, that means something between -1 and -2 on a HC1!

November 15th, 2006, 10:48 AM	#24
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	i struggled like crazy with my a1e and letus FE Light loss indoors was impossible. You have to have rods due to the 37mm thread, get cavision light ones really __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

December 8th, 2006, 09:19 AM	#26
Bruno Donnet Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 91	Guys, you can play with Colors/WB, Exposure settings, etc... BUT REMEMBER that the number of notches are different on a Sony A1 and a on Sony HC1: so saying -3 or +2 means nothing if the model of camera is not mentioned... On a A1: the range is from 0 to 16, with 8 at the middle for all the settings with notches. On a HC1: the range is from 0 to 8, with 4 at the middle for all the settings except the 'LCD colors' (not clear why Sony kept the A1 precision for the LCD...). So if somebody says -2 for 'Colors shift' on a A1, that means only '-1' on a HC1, or if somebody says +2 on WB on a HC1, that means +4 on a A1,...etc. And if somebody says -3 on a A1,...errk, that means something between -1 and -2 on a HC1! __________________ Bruno (alias Koala)

November 10th, 2006, 07:36 PM	#16
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	I've just made some test footage with all the suggested settings, and it looks nothing like film. It looks very unsaturated (duh, still not understanding why -3 for color), still extremely video-like, and nowhere near the DOF of 35mm (duh). Suggestions?

November 11th, 2006, 12:59 AM	#17
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	My personal preferences. If available in your camera. Manual whitebalance always, and even as often as each setup. Shutter 1/50sec or 1/60th. (Sometimes get away with 1/100th sec in 3 f-stop range low contrast bright conditions.). Default colour saturation settings for the camera. The manuafacturer arrived at fair average best through a lot of R & D. Maybe try stronger colour saturation if you can later desaturate in post wthout causing any defects in post. Sharpness? maybe up a notch or two, if it is camera default at 10 maybe 11 or 12 but no more. Too much fine moving detail such as groundglass grain may become unpleasingly evident and also burden the compression scheme of the camera which may create artifacts or reduce sharpness ( a contradiction in terms). Exposure or brightness level manual settings preferable. - The opposite of negative film informal golden rule of if in doubt burn it out by one f-stop. Better to go under by one f-stop in video via a GG image relay system rather than to lose sharpness due to overbrightness. Use camcorder to control brightness as much as possible as within reason, more light on the GG from the SLR lens will minimise any groundglass artifacts. An f1.8 SLR lens is better for sharpness at f2.8 - f4 than wide open at f1.8, also better for agile portability as maintaining a dynamic subject within the usable focal plane is not as critical. Available light will determine how closed the aperture can be. The P+S Technik rule of thumb is generally that tighter than f5.6 risks yielding inferior results due to groundglass artifacts becoming evident. Lighting conditions need to be more like those amendable to film origination. Outdoors, try to use the "magic hour' times of closer to morning and evening when the sun is lower and the natural lighting upon vertical surfaces is more direct. Also when possible shoot with the sun behind you, try to keep the contrast range of the subject and background low. GG based image relay does not do so well against the light. GG based image relay, whilst more filmic in the best circumstances is still not film but a visual aesthetic all of its own, a look and tool to be used in its own right. It is a unique toolset with its own rules and limitations you really need to explore by lots of practice and experimentation. A suggested starter setting for outdoors, bright sunny late spring, sun behind camera :- SLR lens f2.8. ND if avalable on ND1. Camcorder aperture if available f5.6 to f6.3. Shutter 1/50th sec or 1/60th sec. Manual whitebalance to greycard or in shade, to bright white paper. (Do not whitebalance under tree shade as this will skew your whitebalance and may introduce some unpleasant magenta casts to skin tones of you are forced to correct in post. If there is lots of vegetative reflectance, then whitebalance in that environment. When setting up close-ups and matching reverse shots, try to orientate the line of sight between the two subjects to be at direct right-angle to the source of the green reflectance and try to avoid white balancing between these takes as objects in between common to both takes will make the colourshift apparent. Lastly, the suggestions are a personal preference and may not reflect established industry practices so do not afford much regard to my comments.

November 11th, 2006, 02:47 AM	#18
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	I've tried those settings before too, and they did not produce film like images either. Jung has produced several very film like videos with his HC1 in the past, so now he's giving tips, but when I try out his tips, it doesn't seem film like at all.

November 11th, 2006, 12:13 PM	#19
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	On more careful reading of posts, I think but am not sure, Jung's post refers to camera settings for achieving a film look direct-to-camera and not via a groundglass based adaptor. I could be wrong.

November 11th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#20
Paul Watkins Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: glassboro, NJ Posts: 87	On more careful reading of posts, I think but am not sure, Jung's post refers to camera settings for achieving a film look direct-to-camera and not via a groundglass based adaptor. I could be wrong. Your right! He was giving me a alternative to my Letus FE. He said the image quality is degraded by the 35mm adapter. However, after I did a couple tests comparing his mthod of only using the sony HC1 and my method of using the Letus FE with the sony HC1, I think the slight trade off is worth it. Without the 35mm adapter the HC1 seems more detailed, but flat. This method would probably work better with a larger camera like the FX1, the focal distance of the smaller camera is just to much to accomplish the right DOF. The color setting he suggested is good if you want the washed look.

November 11th, 2006, 02:04 PM	#21
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	The thing you need to understand is that Jung has used the HC1 and produced EXTREMELY film like videos. That is why I want to know how to do this. He must be doing something in post as well, which I believe is color correction - but how? The camera settings he suggests are probably the best to take into post.

November 11th, 2006, 03:58 PM	#22
Paul Watkins Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: glassboro, NJ Posts: 87	Jung . What are you doing in post to obtain the look? The raw footage that I, and apparently others have obtained looks video-ish. I'd like to try you method in full. I did the settings change, but have lackluster results.Please give more detail , so I can perform a more accurate test using your method.

November 15th, 2006, 09:32 AM	#23
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	Hey Paul, how did you manage to use the letus35 with the HC1? You need rods for that, right? The HC1 has a 37mm filter tread and the letus is probably 55mm or 58mm, which would imply you need a step-up ring, making the connection to the HC1 not very strong. Do you have any trouble shooting run and gun with this combo? cool footage btw!

November 15th, 2006, 02:45 PM	#25
Paul Watkins Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: glassboro, NJ Posts: 87	Do you have any trouble shooting run and gun with this combo? Phil said it best. Get yourself a cavision set up if you want to run and gun. (rods, shoulder mount and grips) Light loss indoors was impossible. When I shoot indoors it is very complex. Initial I used a flood light pointed upward to increase the overall light bouncing the light off the ceiling. Then, I did position lighting (3 point) to get desired effect. Keep camera at 60 fps, change f stop or exposure on camera so light doesn't over power the scene. Problem is the extreme heat. I am attempting to build a DIY light system that will cut down on heat and the yellow hue. I'm taking a trip to home depot this week. If the HC1 or the A1 is starved for light the results are grainy and just bad. But if you create a environment that requires you limited exposure. You can get some nice footage. Also, run and gun in low light with the A1 or HC1 is light trying to thread a needle with a jump rope. It's not going to happen.