Z1/FX1 experiences with Letus/Letus Flip

Phil Bloom · October 30th, 2006, 12:29 PM

sounds great Bob, isn't it like early a.m. where you are?

Am going to get my hands on a Redrock m2 in about a week so am eager to see what it is capable of and compare!

Bob Hart · October 30th, 2006, 12:46 PM

Phil.

When you shoot some Redrock footage, be sure to post a sample of that. About 15mb is max for my computer before it starts chasing its tail.

I'd be interested in seeing how it handles overlit highlights in the out-of-focus area and daylight bounce directly towards camera off things like red brick paths and tabletops.

Yes, it's early am. Been hypotising myself watching the airshow camera tapes after a day at the dayjob then a call by the Letus owners office to shoot another test on the XL2 there.

Phil Bloom · October 30th, 2006, 12:48 PM

I will Bob,

Will shoot the same set up on both the Letus and the M2 for comparison. Not sure how they compare with light loss so there might be some difference at exactly the same settings. At least the one thing i do know is I won't get the static grain on the M2 due to it being rotating disc, am I correct?

I will resize videos to a more manageable size for you too.

Bob Hart · October 30th, 2006, 06:55 PM

Phil.

You may recall a recent link posted by Chris Hurd here not long ago which referred people to archived discussion on the ancestor of M2, - Micro35, I think?

My recollection is they were also intending to go the orbiting GG route, but with small throw half-cranks and miniature ballbearing sets.

This method, when carefully set up, is much smaller than a CD-R sized disk design and just as effective. It requires a lot more metal precision engineering which should be inherently more stable.

Once backfocus and alignments are adjusted and locked, it should be less likely go anyplace without user permission.

My understanding is that these final adjustments are an awkward but once only task.

Phil Bloom · November 1st, 2006, 12:18 PM

Quyen has seen my footage and can't see my film of grain! I know I am not going mad as it's cleary there, though much harder to see on a computer monitor...I just need to know if it's faulty or not. If it is then I need to get it fixed if it isn't and that's the sort of quality you will get from it then I just won't be able to use it. There is no way I can cut in non Letus footage with Letus footage unless they are both Magic Bulleted to within an inch of their lives!!!

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 12:56 PM

Phil:

1. Have you looked at this outfit from your neck of the woods ?:

http://www.sgpro.co.uk/pages/home/homeframeset.html

2. I have a computer monitor I use to display my HDV footage from my FX1. I am displaying using the windows media player or VLC, or QT, depending on the file. The monitor is a Dell 21 in wide screen, 1680 by 1020 or something. If I get right up on the screen, I notice this background grain pattern. I have written off to the screen re:sampling or whatever it is. Is it possible that is what is going on with your display ?

Phil Bloom · November 1st, 2006, 01:13 PM

Hi Chris

I know of Wayne Kinney's SGPro, but never tried it. I really should go down there and check it out, it's only an hour from me (a long way in English terms, next door in US terms!)

It's not the monitor as have played it through 2 HDTV, one 37" the other 26", one broadcast monitor and two different computers and it's always there.

It's definately the grain of the GG that I am seeing, you can clearly see that it is isn't vibrating enough when you switch the motor on from still, it's more blurring them slightly than making them invisible.

Having not seen any other adaptors or seen any other clean full hi def Letus vision it's hard for me to judge whether it's a problem with my particular adaptor or a failing of the technology...

I would love someone to upload a few seconds of full res letus footage untouched for me to see!!! anyone?

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 01:50 PM

I actually order the book on building your own Micro35 project, that included one of the spinning disks. I think that is what Redrock is based on. I've never tried to build it though, but that might be a good project this Winter.

I actually have messed around with PVC pipe static adapters to try to learn the issues. My best result so far has been using, of all things, the plastic bags we use to put produce in at the grocery store. It is static, and shows any wrinkles and or dirt or mark, and that is the reason for spinners and vibrating screens.

However, this testing has given me a lot of insight into the issues. On of the problems I see with the FX1 is the need to get the right achromat setup so you can close focus. In that realm, what is provided by Letus to resolve that issue ?

Edit: Phil check out the forum on the SGPro site. They may have some footage now.

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

It's definately the grain of the GG that I am seeing, you can clearly see that it is isn't vibrating enough when you switch the motor on from still, it's more blurring them slightly than making them invisible.

Having not seen any other adaptors or seen any other clean full hi def Letus vision it's hard for me to judge whether it's a problem with my particular adaptor or a failing of the technology...

I checked it out now that I am home for lunch, and can look at it on that monitor. Yeah, I see the grain. Also see a couple of blotches as I look at the footage in loop. One shows up at top of pilar, emerging from the red, the other just by her right cheek.

So what side is the GG on ? In my opinion, it should be on the side of you camera. The ground glass is what the image forms on. It seems to me the immage would be degraded shoot throught the clear glass.

Phil Bloom · November 1st, 2006, 02:14 PM

yeah there are a couple of blotches...just a couple of specks of dust somewhere inside. I'm guessing probably on the macro (it's not a true achromat in the Letus although that shouldn't affect the grain) maybe...tough to make it completely clean, it doesn't seem at all dust proof.

Am glad you can see the grain and it's not just me. The ground side does face the camera. What do you mean by right achromat for close focus?

If all goes to plan I will get to play with a Redrock tomorrow, am very curious to see the difference, as it rotates I won't get the same static grain effect, more swirls I guess if I am too stopped down...

Is there any GG upgrade available that would fit a Letus I wonder, that might help...I also get my A1 back from repair soon so I can try that out again and maybe even remove the macro as it doesn't need it and see how it fairs with that

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 02:23 PM

I've just been fooling around with a combination of old 35mm close up lenses, and have a lot of issues with focus falling off on edges. But I understand a "proper" achromat for these purposes and to avoid chromatic aberation is a two element unit. And even with the combination of close up lenses, the image I focus on still vignettes at the edges. So I would expect the problems I am facing in my little experiments. I was just wondering what the Letus provides to gives you the improve the FX1's close focus ability.

Phil Bloom · November 1st, 2006, 02:26 PM

chromatic aberation is something completely different from what I am experiencing though...am sure a proper achromat would be better. I don't have any problem get a sharp focus though.

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

chromatic aberation is something completely different from what I am experiencing though...am sure a proper achromat would be better. I don't have any problem get a sharp focus though.

Just saw your post in another thread. I must didn't pay much attention if you mentioned it here, but I see that there is the added element of the flip.
I had seen a lot better Letus stuff before, and was surprised at you issues. But I have seen much on the flip yet. I can see potentional for problems there too.

Phil Bloom · November 1st, 2006, 02:48 PM

i gather the flip will lose me more light, but I didn't think it would affect the grain...

Saw this from Greg Bates in another thread..

The Letus flip was great until I got my HVX, at 720p you can see every bit of grain on the gg as it just does not vibrate enough to disperse the grain. The Brevis is very well put together and polished as a product. I'm waiting on the filp module now...Dennis:) I wish Quyen would upgrade the glass as my Letus Flip is collecting dust.

Do you think upgrading glass could help?

Chris Barcellos · November 1st, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

i gather the flip will lose me more light, but I didn't think it would affect the grain...

Saw this from Greg Bates in another thread..

The Letus flip was great until I got my HVX, at 720p you can see every bit of grain on the gg as it just does not vibrate enough to disperse the grain. The Brevis is very well put together and polished as a product. I'm waiting on the filp module now...Dennis:) I wish Quyen would upgrade the glass as my Letus Flip is collecting dust.

Do you think upgrading glass could help?

Wow. Thats right on point. Pretty definitive about the issue.

All of these systems were developed initially for SD, and it stands to reason grain might be a bigger issue with HD and HDV. I assume the flip is accomplished by mirror, and for some reason the grain might be being enhanced.

I saw that Brevis Cinevate site, and the demos there look great too:

http://www.cinevate.com/index.php?page=products

October 30th, 2006, 12:29 PM	#16
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	sounds great Bob, isn't it like early a.m. where you are? Am going to get my hands on a Redrock m2 in about a week so am eager to see what it is capable of and compare! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

October 30th, 2006, 12:48 PM	#18
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	I will Bob, Will shoot the same set up on both the Letus and the M2 for comparison. Not sure how they compare with light loss so there might be some difference at exactly the same settings. At least the one thing i do know is I won't get the static grain on the M2 due to it being rotating disc, am I correct? I will resize videos to a more manageable size for you too. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 1st, 2006, 12:18 PM	#20
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	Quyen has seen my footage and can't see my film of grain! I know I am not going mad as it's cleary there, though much harder to see on a computer monitor...I just need to know if it's faulty or not. If it is then I need to get it fixed if it isn't and that's the sort of quality you will get from it then I just won't be able to use it. There is no way I can cut in non Letus footage with Letus footage unless they are both Magic Bulleted to within an inch of their lives!!! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 1st, 2006, 12:56 PM	#21
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Phil: 1. Have you looked at this outfit from your neck of the woods ?: http://www.sgpro.co.uk/pages/home/homeframeset.html 2. I have a computer monitor I use to display my HDV footage from my FX1. I am displaying using the windows media player or VLC, or QT, depending on the file. The monitor is a Dell 21 in wide screen, 1680 by 1020 or something. If I get right up on the screen, I notice this background grain pattern. I have written off to the screen re:sampling or whatever it is. Is it possible that is what is going on with your display ? __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 1st, 2006, 01:13 PM	#22
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	Hi Chris I know of Wayne Kinney's SGPro, but never tried it. I really should go down there and check it out, it's only an hour from me (a long way in English terms, next door in US terms!) It's not the monitor as have played it through 2 HDTV, one 37" the other 26", one broadcast monitor and two different computers and it's always there. It's definately the grain of the GG that I am seeing, you can clearly see that it is isn't vibrating enough when you switch the motor on from still, it's more blurring them slightly than making them invisible. Having not seen any other adaptors or seen any other clean full hi def Letus vision it's hard for me to judge whether it's a problem with my particular adaptor or a failing of the technology... I would love someone to upload a few seconds of full res letus footage untouched for me to see!!! anyone? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

October 30th, 2006, 12:46 PM	#17
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Phil. When you shoot some Redrock footage, be sure to post a sample of that. About 15mb is max for my computer before it starts chasing its tail. I'd be interested in seeing how it handles overlit highlights in the out-of-focus area and daylight bounce directly towards camera off things like red brick paths and tabletops. Yes, it's early am. Been hypotising myself watching the airshow camera tapes after a day at the dayjob then a call by the Letus owners office to shoot another test on the XL2 there.

October 30th, 2006, 06:55 PM	#19
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Phil. You may recall a recent link posted by Chris Hurd here not long ago which referred people to archived discussion on the ancestor of M2, - Micro35, I think? My recollection is they were also intending to go the orbiting GG route, but with small throw half-cranks and miniature ballbearing sets. This method, when carefully set up, is much smaller than a CD-R sized disk design and just as effective. It requires a lot more metal precision engineering which should be inherently more stable. Once backfocus and alignments are adjusted and locked, it should be less likely go anyplace without user permission. My understanding is that these final adjustments are an awkward but once only task.

November 1st, 2006, 01:50 PM	#23
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I actually order the book on building your own Micro35 project, that included one of the spinning disks. I think that is what Redrock is based on. I've never tried to build it though, but that might be a good project this Winter. I actually have messed around with PVC pipe static adapters to try to learn the issues. My best result so far has been using, of all things, the plastic bags we use to put produce in at the grocery store. It is static, and shows any wrinkles and or dirt or mark, and that is the reason for spinners and vibrating screens. However, this testing has given me a lot of insight into the issues. On of the problems I see with the FX1 is the need to get the right achromat setup so you can close focus. In that realm, what is provided by Letus to resolve that issue ? Edit: Phil check out the forum on the SGPro site. They may have some footage now. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 1st, 2006, 02:14 PM	#25
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	yeah there are a couple of blotches...just a couple of specks of dust somewhere inside. I'm guessing probably on the macro (it's not a true achromat in the Letus although that shouldn't affect the grain) maybe...tough to make it completely clean, it doesn't seem at all dust proof. Am glad you can see the grain and it's not just me. The ground side does face the camera. What do you mean by right achromat for close focus? If all goes to plan I will get to play with a Redrock tomorrow, am very curious to see the difference, as it rotates I won't get the same static grain effect, more swirls I guess if I am too stopped down... Is there any GG upgrade available that would fit a Letus I wonder, that might help...I also get my A1 back from repair soon so I can try that out again and maybe even remove the macro as it doesn't need it and see how it fairs with that __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 1st, 2006, 02:23 PM	#26
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I've just been fooling around with a combination of old 35mm close up lenses, and have a lot of issues with focus falling off on edges. But I understand a "proper" achromat for these purposes and to avoid chromatic aberation is a two element unit. And even with the combination of close up lenses, the image I focus on still vignettes at the edges. So I would expect the problems I am facing in my little experiments. I was just wondering what the Letus provides to gives you the improve the FX1's close focus ability. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 1st, 2006, 02:26 PM	#27
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	chromatic aberation is something completely different from what I am experiencing though...am sure a proper achromat would be better. I don't have any problem get a sharp focus though. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

November 1st, 2006, 02:48 PM	#29
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	i gather the flip will lose me more light, but I didn't think it would affect the grain... Saw this from Greg Bates in another thread.. The Letus flip was great until I got my HVX, at 720p you can see every bit of grain on the gg as it just does not vibrate enough to disperse the grain. The Brevis is very well put together and polished as a product. I'm waiting on the filp module now...Dennis:) I wish Quyen would upgrade the glass as my Letus Flip is collecting dust. Do you think upgrading glass could help? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net