Octagon35: spinner w/flipper, relay and bellows at DVinfo.net

Justine Haupt · July 21st, 2006, 08:59 PM

I've been working on this for many months, and I finally have something that can produce images. The ground glass I'm using right now is only temprorary (I'll be replacing it with something thinner and that has finer grain).

I have very little time and probably won't get to post a screen grab for a while...

Still to do:
-I still have to prepare a little area for the batteries (2 9v) within the adapter.
-As you can see part of the GG is sticking out the top, so I just need to cover that up.
-It doesn't have an achromat (yet)
-I need a different potentiometer, as the one I'm using (1K) is far too sensitive.

http://www.particleproducing.com/images/p1010073c.jpg
http://www.particleproducing.com/images/p1010070c.jpg

An explanation of the design:

The most notable feature is perhaps the backwards Mamiya bellows on the front. This is so I have adjustable flange focal distance, giving me a the choice of just about any 35mm lens out there to use with this (I only have to make the appropriate mount). I'll eventually have a cine lens on there of some kind, but for now that's a 50mm FD shown in the pic. The relay lens is a 28mm FD attached to an FD/XL adapter I made. The main lens mount attaching the front lens to the bellows is also home made.

The spinner is actually a recent design change. The original plan was to have this be an oscillator, with the ground glass pertruding into the bellows. I wound up deciding at the last minute not to spend another x months getting my oscillator to work right, so I turned it into a spinner. The oscillator design I had is actually pretty promising, I think -- it incorporates a very wide (4mm) oscillation radius, with counterweights and a cog belt/pulleys to make sure the spindles don't get out of sync. I decided it was too much work for the advantages I was going for.

As I said earlier, the ground glass on it now is only temporary (I originally had a thinner piece with finer grain, but the glass cutter couldn't cut it big enough out of the piece I had, so the glass in it now is actually meant for a window!). The new glass will be also be easily interchangeable and very stable. The one on it now has a very slight wobble, but that wil be solved once I have time to work on the new GG.

The black areas are actually 1/4" foam that pop out so I can access the mirrors/motor etc.

Comment welcome!

David Delaney · July 22nd, 2006, 07:49 AM

Wow, that is a great design. I would love to see some stills from it.

Matthew Nayman · July 22nd, 2006, 07:52 AM

So... this ties in nicely with a thread of mine. Does a 28mm FD lens on a mount work as a relay? How does it focus close enough Without an Achromat?

Forrest Schultz · July 22nd, 2006, 09:15 AM

damn son...

Cole McDonald · July 22nd, 2006, 11:49 AM

nicely done...big old looking piece of hardware.

Mikko Parttimaa · July 22nd, 2006, 06:42 PM

Wow, some adapters make cameras look like leaf blowers. This one looks like Camera Obscura mounted on a XL2.

Justine Haupt · July 22nd, 2006, 06:42 PM

Thanks for the comments... the next step is to do that major upgrade on the GG, and than I'll provide some stills. I shot some "video" (at this point, I hate calling it that ;)) with it before and it shows a lot of promise. The vignetting is significant and it's a little fuzzy, but after the new GG, fuzzy should be the last thing that comes to mind, and I'll be trying different achromat combinations until it's perfect.

Matthew, the 28mm lens is around 20cm from the GG (after making it through the mirrors) and about 2.4cm in front of the camera body... the FD-XL mount I made has that much space built into it, with screws on the inside for fine tuning. With those measurements, nothing but the lens is needed to make it work -- the spacing between the camera and relay is all that's needed. From your picture, it looks like you have something that works just fine with a little tweaking... you just need to mount the lens to the camera, right?

It is a big and bulky looking thing, and not the prettiest, but I realized that any adapter using a 28mm lens as a relay would have to have similar dimensions front-to-back.

Bob Hart · July 22nd, 2006, 11:49 PM

Justin.

What is the aperture of the SLR on front of your adaptor, (not the lens you are using for relay to the camcorder.)

If it is not a f1.8 lens or aperture set to no tighter than about f2.8 then this might cause your vignette.

If it is a f1.8 lens then :-

I would be inclined to shorten the 24mm spacer distance between the 28mm lens and the XL camera body to about half what it is now.

This will mean, the GG may have to be furthur forward if the focal range of your 28mm relay lens is no longer enough.

This should hopefully give you a larger image onto the camcorder CCD and eliminate the vignette but I don't know what this then does to your mirror path.

Otherwise, what you have there seems to be a viable solution.

Justine Haupt · July 23rd, 2006, 09:20 PM

Thanks for the advice Bob!

I was playing with it some more today and experimenting a little with different distances between the GG, lens and camera, but to crop the frame enough to eliminate the vignetting I'd have to make more significant design changes than I'd like to. EDIT: I meant to include that if I wind up deciding I need to crop it, I'm just going to find a slightly longer focal length lens, so I don't have to change my setup at all. It was a lot of machining... the next one will have far less metal parts and build much faster. I want to make the design such that someone with ordinary tools could make one.

BUT, I aligned the mirrors better and that helped quite a bit (the image was slightly offset, so more of the darkness was in the frame than should have been). I was experimenting with a PCX and BCX behind the GG, and the BCX really helped. So I'm hoping the combination of a new GG and the BCX will just about eliminate the vignetting, though I think I can get even better results with different lens combinations to condense the light into the relay.

The front lens is f1.8, 50mm, full open, so that's not the problem. I'm looking at old Angenieux zoom cine lenses on ebay, so that might change the equation, too.

Once it's all working perfectly, I think I'm going to make a complete, very throurough "how to" guide w/ technical drawings, so people have a clear cut way to make one of these.

Boica Zsolt · July 24th, 2006, 01:16 AM

WOW, thats an impressive piece of work. From what you wrote, I understand that your adapter has an image errection system too, right?

Justine Haupt · July 24th, 2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boica Zsolt

WOW, thats an impressive piece of work. From what you wrote, I understand that your adapter has an image errection system too, right?

Yep! Good thing too... if it weren't for that, the relay lens setup would have to be a lot more complicated.

Keith Kline · July 24th, 2006, 07:41 PM

So the relay lens is farther away from the chip than it would be using something like the EF adapter from Canon? Reason I ask is when I messed with a 24mm and the canon EF adapter as a relay lens the GG had to be way to far away and it made the entire adapter longer than it would have been using the stock XL lens.

Justine Haupt · July 24th, 2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Kline

So the relay lens is farther away from the chip than it would be using something like the EF adapter from Canon? Reason I ask is when I messed with a 24mm and the canon EF adapter as a relay lens the GG had to be way to far away and it made the entire adapter longer than it would have been using the stock XL lens.

Ahh, yes... that's why the presence of the image flipper is so important (not just for image flipping). By the time the light reflects through all those mirrors, the optical distance is far enough to resolve the ground glass, but the physical length of the device is much smaller. The exact conversion (as Quyen Le pointed out in a previous thread) is magnification x focal length. The magnification (cropping, actual) of a 1/3" CCD is 7.2x, so 7.2*24mm comes to 17.3cm. With my 28mm lens the GG needs to be 20.3cm away, but the adapter is only about 9cm from the front of the relay to the GG.

When it's totally finished I'm going to make a complete construction guide for anyone who wants to built one themselves without spending eternity figuring out actually how, and than tweaking it once it works. The guide will be very complete and specific, with a parts list and sources for those parts as well (and it will be more suited for every-day tools... I'm not going to assume the builder has access to a lathe, for example). If I had the money, I would have bought one a while a go, but as affordable as these adapters are becoming, there are still those who could only really justify the cost by self-building.

My goal is to get it producing images as good as just about anything else out there. I can't wait :) :)

Matthew Nayman · July 25th, 2006, 08:23 AM

Justin!

Thanks for the concise explination about why a 28mm Lens wont work as a relay on the Redrock M2. I have been searching for that exact answer for months now, and yours was very concise!

Now... can the 20.3cm wiuthout an image erection system be shortened by using an achromat lens or finding a lens that can focus incredibly close up?

I only ask cause you seem incredibly knowledgable in this!

Justine Haupt · July 25th, 2006, 05:52 PM

You're welcom! ;)

To be honest, I just don't know what can be done with an achromat, but it should be possible to shorten that distance some way. It depends on how short a distance you want, but I don't see why a shorter focal length macro lens wouldn't work... but what kind of focal length, and whether or not we're talking significant distortion, I just don't know. Various combinations of lenses between the relay and ground glass can also affect magnification (and have an affect on distance). A good way to experiment with this stuff is to get a little test lens set. You get assorted sets of different types of (glass) lenses for very cheap... like this one: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3040414. Unfortunately, such lenses aren't really suitable for actual use in a project... just testing different combinations.

Also, anyone looking for a source of reasonably priced first surface mirrors, the same site has them for $5 each. These are the mirrors in my adapter and I'm completely satisfied with them: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052324

There's a book I have called Optics and Optical Instruments by B.K. Johnson (Dover Books on Physics). It's thorough, and to be honest I haven't really gotten into it too much. I'll eventually have to take a class on optics anyway (physics major).

I also found this:http://www.osdoptics.com/

It's a graphical optical system design program, free for 90 days (good thing, because it's $1000 after that, so anyone who tries it should make good use of it in that time). The only limiting factor in the demo besides time is that the system is limited to 12 optical surfaces, but that shouldn't be an issue for our applications.

I never really got into that either (intense - steep learning curve), but maybe someone else could make use of it.

Ok, hope that stuff helps.

Also, some corrections:

I'd lost my ruler and just replaced it today...

The spacing between the relay lens and XL2 outer surface is 18mm. The physical length between the relay and GG is 8cm.

July 21st, 2006, 08:59 PM	#1
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Octagon35: spinner w/flipper, relay and bellows I've been working on this for many months, and I finally have something that can produce images. The ground glass I'm using right now is only temprorary (I'll be replacing it with something thinner and that has finer grain). I have very little time and probably won't get to post a screen grab for a while... Still to do: -I still have to prepare a little area for the batteries (2 9v) within the adapter. -As you can see part of the GG is sticking out the top, so I just need to cover that up. -It doesn't have an achromat (yet) -I need a different potentiometer, as the one I'm using (1K) is far too sensitive. http://www.particleproducing.com/images/p1010073c.jpg http://www.particleproducing.com/images/p1010070c.jpg An explanation of the design: The most notable feature is perhaps the backwards Mamiya bellows on the front. This is so I have adjustable flange focal distance, giving me a the choice of just about any 35mm lens out there to use with this (I only have to make the appropriate mount). I'll eventually have a cine lens on there of some kind, but for now that's a 50mm FD shown in the pic. The relay lens is a 28mm FD attached to an FD/XL adapter I made. The main lens mount attaching the front lens to the bellows is also home made. The spinner is actually a recent design change. The original plan was to have this be an oscillator, with the ground glass pertruding into the bellows. I wound up deciding at the last minute not to spend another x months getting my oscillator to work right, so I turned it into a spinner. The oscillator design I had is actually pretty promising, I think -- it incorporates a very wide (4mm) oscillation radius, with counterweights and a cog belt/pulleys to make sure the spindles don't get out of sync. I decided it was too much work for the advantages I was going for. As I said earlier, the ground glass on it now is only temporary (I originally had a thinner piece with finer grain, but the glass cutter couldn't cut it big enough out of the piece I had, so the glass in it now is actually meant for a window!). The new glass will be also be easily interchangeable and very stable. The one on it now has a very slight wobble, but that wil be solved once I have time to work on the new GG. The black areas are actually 1/4" foam that pop out so I can access the mirrors/motor etc. Comment welcome! __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

July 22nd, 2006, 11:49 AM	#5
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	nicely done...big old looking piece of hardware. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

July 22nd, 2006, 06:42 PM	#7
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Thanks for the comments... the next step is to do that major upgrade on the GG, and than I'll provide some stills. I shot some "video" (at this point, I hate calling it that ;)) with it before and it shows a lot of promise. The vignetting is significant and it's a little fuzzy, but after the new GG, fuzzy should be the last thing that comes to mind, and I'll be trying different achromat combinations until it's perfect. Matthew, the 28mm lens is around 20cm from the GG (after making it through the mirrors) and about 2.4cm in front of the camera body... the FD-XL mount I made has that much space built into it, with screws on the inside for fine tuning. With those measurements, nothing but the lens is needed to make it work -- the spacing between the camera and relay is all that's needed. From your picture, it looks like you have something that works just fine with a little tweaking... you just need to mount the lens to the camera, right? It is a big and bulky looking thing, and not the prettiest, but I realized that any adapter using a 28mm lens as a relay would have to have similar dimensions front-to-back. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka) Last edited by Justine Haupt; July 22nd, 2006 at 10:28 PM.

July 23rd, 2006, 09:20 PM	#9
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Thanks for the advice Bob! I was playing with it some more today and experimenting a little with different distances between the GG, lens and camera, but to crop the frame enough to eliminate the vignetting I'd have to make more significant design changes than I'd like to. EDIT: I meant to include that if I wind up deciding I need to crop it, I'm just going to find a slightly longer focal length lens, so I don't have to change my setup at all. It was a lot of machining... the next one will have far less metal parts and build much faster. I want to make the design such that someone with ordinary tools could make one. BUT, I aligned the mirrors better and that helped quite a bit (the image was slightly offset, so more of the darkness was in the frame than should have been). I was experimenting with a PCX and BCX behind the GG, and the BCX really helped. So I'm hoping the combination of a new GG and the BCX will just about eliminate the vignetting, though I think I can get even better results with different lens combinations to condense the light into the relay. The front lens is f1.8, 50mm, full open, so that's not the problem. I'm looking at old Angenieux zoom cine lenses on ebay, so that might change the equation, too. Once it's all working perfectly, I think I'm going to make a complete, very throurough "how to" guide w/ technical drawings, so people have a clear cut way to make one of these. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka) Last edited by Justine Haupt; July 24th, 2006 at 07:25 PM.

July 25th, 2006, 05:52 PM	#15
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	You're welcom! ;) To be honest, I just don't know what can be done with an achromat, but it should be possible to shorten that distance some way. It depends on how short a distance you want, but I don't see why a shorter focal length macro lens wouldn't work... but what kind of focal length, and whether or not we're talking significant distortion, I just don't know. Various combinations of lenses between the relay and ground glass can also affect magnification (and have an affect on distance). A good way to experiment with this stuff is to get a little test lens set. You get assorted sets of different types of (glass) lenses for very cheap... like this one: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3040414. Unfortunately, such lenses aren't really suitable for actual use in a project... just testing different combinations. Also, anyone looking for a source of reasonably priced first surface mirrors, the same site has them for $5 each. These are the mirrors in my adapter and I'm completely satisfied with them: http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3052324 There's a book I have called Optics and Optical Instruments by B.K. Johnson (Dover Books on Physics). It's thorough, and to be honest I haven't really gotten into it too much. I'll eventually have to take a class on optics anyway (physics major). I also found this:http://www.osdoptics.com/ It's a graphical optical system design program, free for 90 days (good thing, because it's $1000 after that, so anyone who tries it should make good use of it in that time). The only limiting factor in the demo besides time is that the system is limited to 12 optical surfaces, but that shouldn't be an issue for our applications. I never really got into that either (intense - steep learning curve), but maybe someone else could make use of it. Ok, hope that stuff helps. Also, some corrections: I'd lost my ruler and just replaced it today... The spacing between the relay lens and XL2 outer surface is 18mm. The physical length between the relay and GG is 8cm. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

July 22nd, 2006, 07:49 AM	#2
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	Wow, that is a great design. I would love to see some stills from it.

July 22nd, 2006, 07:52 AM	#3
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	So... this ties in nicely with a thread of mine. Does a 28mm FD lens on a mount work as a relay? How does it focus close enough Without an Achromat?

July 22nd, 2006, 09:15 AM	#4
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	damn son...

July 22nd, 2006, 06:42 PM	#6
Mikko Parttimaa Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 45	Wow, some adapters make cameras look like leaf blowers. This one looks like Camera Obscura mounted on a XL2.

July 22nd, 2006, 11:49 PM	#8
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Justin. What is the aperture of the SLR on front of your adaptor, (not the lens you are using for relay to the camcorder.) If it is not a f1.8 lens or aperture set to no tighter than about f2.8 then this might cause your vignette. If it is a f1.8 lens then :- I would be inclined to shorten the 24mm spacer distance between the 28mm lens and the XL camera body to about half what it is now. This will mean, the GG may have to be furthur forward if the focal range of your 28mm relay lens is no longer enough. This should hopefully give you a larger image onto the camcorder CCD and eliminate the vignette but I don't know what this then does to your mirror path. Otherwise, what you have there seems to be a viable solution.

July 24th, 2006, 01:16 AM	#10
Boica Zsolt Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Targu Secuiesc RO Posts: 27	WOW, thats an impressive piece of work. From what you wrote, I understand that your adapter has an image errection system too, right?

July 24th, 2006, 07:41 PM	#12
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	So the relay lens is farther away from the chip than it would be using something like the EF adapter from Canon? Reason I ask is when I messed with a 24mm and the canon EF adapter as a relay lens the GG had to be way to far away and it made the entire adapter longer than it would have been using the stock XL lens.

July 25th, 2006, 08:23 AM	#14
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Justin! Thanks for the concise explination about why a 28mm Lens wont work as a relay on the Redrock M2. I have been searching for that exact answer for months now, and yours was very concise! Now... can the 20.3cm wiuthout an image erection system be shortened by using an achromat lens or finding a lens that can focus incredibly close up? I only ask cause you seem incredibly knowledgable in this!