The Upside Down Thing at DVinfo.net

Chris Dunne · February 5th, 2006, 09:21 AM

Anyone know how to get the image the right way up when shooting with a lens adaptor on a Sony TRV950? I heard there's stuff to be done with magnets.....?

Leo Mandy · February 5th, 2006, 09:44 AM

There is a sweet spot on the LCD, flip it out and run the magnet over the edge closest to the camera (it is slightly different on all cameras). Keep trying until you get it. Make sure the magnet is only a fridge magnet or something weak.

Dennis Wood · February 5th, 2006, 10:13 AM

Leo, this does not apply to all cameras. The GS400 (and this from the factory schematic) does not use magnetic reed switches. The "sensing" mechanism is evidently in the LCD hinge assembly, combined with sensors that detect when the camera is upside down.

Other than mirrors mounted to your LCD, or a prism/mirror image flip, there is no way to view footage upright on this camera. Turn it upside down, the camera detects that, and rotates the image. These "smart" LCD's are the worst thing possible for folks with adapters.

Ben Winter · February 5th, 2006, 10:53 AM

And the manufacturer thought it was doing us consumers a favor...sheesh.

Dennis Wood · February 5th, 2006, 11:57 AM

They were.....most consumers don't strap a 35mm lens on :-)

Canon got it right with the flip feature on their XLH.

David MD Smith · February 6th, 2006, 09:39 AM

Dennis,

If your smart lcd detects being upside down and flips then you'd be ok!

Inverting a camera with a lens adapter results in a correctly orientated image
on the recording only, the display will still be upside down.

To check, rotate your camera whilst using your adapter and watch out for the lcd to suddenly detect it's upside down and switch. My guess is that it doesn't.

see http://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/~smithdm/upside.html
for example.

regards

Dave

Cole McDonald · February 6th, 2006, 09:48 AM

I'm using an external field LCD monitor which I just flip over when mounting. I have an XL1s which doesn't have that kind of an LCD.

Dennis Wood · February 6th, 2006, 10:53 AM

David, funny how the flip issue creates the discussion that it does:

My favourite is that rotating the cam 180 degress does not invert and flip the image...ha.

And yes, you're correct. With the GS400 inverted with an adapter, the footage is recorded correctly...however it's displayed upside down on the LCD. I found out the hard way after building a rail system to mount the cam inverted and realized to my surprise that the LCD had flipped what should have been a correctly displayed image, upside down again. This was a surprise to just about everyone over at pana3ccduser too. If you rotate the cam 180 degrees with no adapter..surprise, it rotates the image upright. It makes no sense as to why the 35mm image is not rotated, then flipped upright as the cam detects inversion.

I'm working on a FS mirror solution...

David MD Smith · February 6th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Hi Dennis,

I'm reckoning that if the LCD doesn't do a "smart" flip i.e. it doesn't detect which way up it is, then the image will still be upside down when the camera is inverted.

This is the case with mine.

regards,

Dave

Wayne Kinney · February 6th, 2006, 11:19 AM

Im with David on this one

Dennis Wood · February 6th, 2006, 11:20 AM

Picture this:

GS400 is upright...no adapter present, normal image on LCD.

Now flip it upside down. LCD detects this and reverts image. Recorded image is upside down, LCD display is upright.

Now add adapter. LCD image is now upside down due to adapter. Recorded image is correct. So you're cooked either way.

That's a great illustration you linked to BTW. And yes, I agree, the image would be upside down regardless of the "smart" flip. It's a tough one to get one's head around.

Wayne Kinney · February 6th, 2006, 11:34 AM

Dennis,

So with this 'flip' feature, when you turn the cam upside down the LCD will also be physically upsidedown, but the cam flips the picture 180, correct?

So, if this is true, without the adapter, turn cam upsidedown, the image flips on the LCD and the image on the LCD appears upsidedown when viewed (as it would be when viewed on a conencted tv).

Put 35mm adapter on, and the image will be correct way around.

Correct me if im wrong....

EDIT:
Just to back this up, looking at that diagram posted above, you see on a normal cam without a flip feature, that even with the camcorder inverted, the image on the LCD appears upsidedown still from the opertators viewpoint. Now, if the 'flip' feature was on, then the image on the LCD whould be fliped 180 degrees, giving you an upright image from the operators viewpiont and on the final recording.

Francois Poitras · February 6th, 2006, 12:45 PM

The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it flips the image, so that the image you got initially stays the same.

With the adapter, it does the same. It assumes that the inverted image is correct; so when you turn the cam and adapter upside down, it flips the image... which stays inverted.

Wayne Kinney · February 6th, 2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francois Poitras

The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it flips the image, so that the image you got initially stays the same.

I dont think this is correct.

Forget adapters for a second...

Normal camcorder upright = Image on LCD upright from operators view

Normal camcorder upsidedown = Image on LCD is still upright from operators view (since the LCD is also now upside down).

------------

Camcorder with flip feature upright = Image on LCD upright from operators view

Camcorder with flip feature upsidedown = Image on LCD upsidedown from operators view (as it is on the tape and to a connected tv)

-------
Now with adapter:

Camcorder with flip feature upright with 35mm adapter = Image on LCD upsidedown from operators view

Camcorder with flip feature upsidedown with 35mm adapter = Image on LCD upright from operators view (as it is on the tape and to a conencted tv).

So this suggests that a cam with this flip feature, if mounted upsidedown with a 35mm adapter, will both give you a correctly oriented image on the LCD and a correctly oriented image recordered to tape.

EDIT: I hope david does not mind but i added to his diagram at the bottom the result of a cam inverted, with flip option and a 35mm adapter added:

http://www.s149867411.onlinehome.fr/upside2.jpg

Francois Poitras · February 6th, 2006, 02:03 PM

OK, there may be a bit of confusion on the word "flip" here.

The GS400 behaves like a "normal camcorder", as per your example.

So let me rephrase: The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it still gives you the image you had when it was upright.

February 5th, 2006, 09:21 AM	#1
Chris Dunne Tourist Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 4	The Upside Down Thing Anyone know how to get the image the right way up when shooting with a lens adaptor on a Sony TRV950? I heard there's stuff to be done with magnets.....?

February 5th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#4
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	And the manufacturer thought it was doing us consumers a favor...sheesh. __________________ BenWinter.com

February 6th, 2006, 09:39 AM	#6
David MD Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 42	Dennis, If your smart lcd detects being upside down and flips then you'd be ok! Inverting a camera with a lens adapter results in a correctly orientated image on the recording only, the display will still be upside down. To check, rotate your camera whilst using your adapter and watch out for the lcd to suddenly detect it's upside down and switch. My guess is that it doesn't. see http://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/~smithdm/upside.html for example. regards Dave Last edited by David MD Smith; February 6th, 2006 at 10:47 AM.

February 6th, 2006, 11:19 AM	#10
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Im with David on this one __________________ Thanks, Wayne.

February 6th, 2006, 11:34 AM	#12
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Dennis, So with this 'flip' feature, when you turn the cam upside down the LCD will also be physically upsidedown, but the cam flips the picture 180, correct? So, if this is true, without the adapter, turn cam upsidedown, the image flips on the LCD and the image on the LCD appears upsidedown when viewed (as it would be when viewed on a conencted tv). Put 35mm adapter on, and the image will be correct way around. Correct me if im wrong.... EDIT: Just to back this up, looking at that diagram posted above, you see on a normal cam without a flip feature, that even with the camcorder inverted, the image on the LCD appears upsidedown still from the opertators viewpoint. Now, if the 'flip' feature was on, then the image on the LCD whould be fliped 180 degrees, giving you an upright image from the operators viewpiont and on the final recording. __________________ Thanks, Wayne.

February 5th, 2006, 09:44 AM	#2
Leo Mandy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 749	There is a sweet spot on the LCD, flip it out and run the magnet over the edge closest to the camera (it is slightly different on all cameras). Keep trying until you get it. Make sure the magnet is only a fridge magnet or something weak.

February 5th, 2006, 10:13 AM	#3
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Leo, this does not apply to all cameras. The GS400 (and this from the factory schematic) does not use magnetic reed switches. The "sensing" mechanism is evidently in the LCD hinge assembly, combined with sensors that detect when the camera is upside down. Other than mirrors mounted to your LCD, or a prism/mirror image flip, there is no way to view footage upright on this camera. Turn it upside down, the camera detects that, and rotates the image. These "smart" LCD's are the worst thing possible for folks with adapters.

February 5th, 2006, 11:57 AM	#5
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	They were.....most consumers don't strap a 35mm lens on :-) Canon got it right with the flip feature on their XLH.

February 6th, 2006, 09:48 AM	#7
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	I'm using an external field LCD monitor which I just flip over when mounting. I have an XL1s which doesn't have that kind of an LCD.

February 6th, 2006, 10:53 AM	#8
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	David, funny how the flip issue creates the discussion that it does: My favourite is that rotating the cam 180 degress does not invert and flip the image...ha. And yes, you're correct. With the GS400 inverted with an adapter, the footage is recorded correctly...however it's displayed upside down on the LCD. I found out the hard way after building a rail system to mount the cam inverted and realized to my surprise that the LCD had flipped what should have been a correctly displayed image, upside down again. This was a surprise to just about everyone over at pana3ccduser too. If you rotate the cam 180 degrees with no adapter..surprise, it rotates the image upright. It makes no sense as to why the 35mm image is not rotated, then flipped upright as the cam detects inversion. I'm working on a FS mirror solution...

February 6th, 2006, 11:00 AM	#9
David MD Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 42	Hi Dennis, I'm reckoning that if the LCD doesn't do a "smart" flip i.e. it doesn't detect which way up it is, then the image will still be upside down when the camera is inverted. This is the case with mine. regards, Dave

February 6th, 2006, 11:20 AM	#11
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Picture this: GS400 is upright...no adapter present, normal image on LCD. Now flip it upside down. LCD detects this and reverts image. Recorded image is upside down, LCD display is upright. Now add adapter. LCD image is now upside down due to adapter. Recorded image is correct. So you're cooked either way. That's a great illustration you linked to BTW. And yes, I agree, the image would be upside down regardless of the "smart" flip. It's a tough one to get one's head around.

February 6th, 2006, 12:45 PM	#13
Francois Poitras Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Québec (Canada) Posts: 133	The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it flips the image, so that the image you got initially stays the same. With the adapter, it does the same. It assumes that the inverted image is correct; so when you turn the cam and adapter upside down, it flips the image... which stays inverted. __________________ François

February 6th, 2006, 02:03 PM	#15
Francois Poitras Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Québec (Canada) Posts: 133	OK, there may be a bit of confusion on the word "flip" here. The GS400 behaves like a "normal camcorder", as per your example. So let me rephrase: The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it still gives you the image you had when it was upright. __________________ François