Adapter for telecine? at DVinfo.net

Justine Haupt · February 1st, 2006, 07:23 PM

Has anyone tried it? I've used a piece of GG (static) in the past to back project onto for the camera, but it occured to me that a moving Mini35 could work incredibly well if the projector could be brought into focus close enough to make such a small frame -- even if some kind of specialty lens is needed on the projector, it seems like an interesting idea for anyone shooting on film and not wanting to pay for an expensive transfer.

My adapter isn't finished, so I can't try it myself, but does anyone have experience with this that they can speak from?

And as an aside, I'd also been curious about shooting on super 8 with a mini35... has it been done? The DOF charadteristics of 8mm are similar to 1/3", and that's something else I want to try once my dang adapter is finally finished.

Andrew Todd · February 2nd, 2006, 09:39 AM

thats a cool idea.. i have a super 8 cam and the projector.. i know kodak just stopped producing the film last year.. do you know where i could find some?

Paul Jefferies · February 2nd, 2006, 01:58 PM

Hi,
Kodak hasn't discontinued all super-8, only the kodachrome 40. You can still get the 125 colour stock, and b/w stocks, plus negative stocks, in the UK you can get them from this place: www.widescreen-centre.co.uk

Kurth Bousman · February 2nd, 2006, 02:40 PM

To telecine you don't need a physical focus screen between the projector and video camera , only a condenser lens. It's the most wasteful idea I've heard of- sorry. If you've got a p&s , or any other adapter, then attach it to a hdv camera. If you want to do telecine , then check out http://www.moviestuff.tv/8mm_telecine.html. - Kurth

Joel Kreisel · February 2nd, 2006, 09:54 PM

Kurth, he's not talking about an actual P+S Mini35. He was just using it to generally refer to all 35mm adapters, right Justin?

(I mean, why on earth would he be building one if he had a P+S?)

That said, I think he's right. The screen is only necessary to achieve a 35mm target size so we can get DOF on video. When doing telecine, the DOF is already there so all you really need to do is get the image straight to the CCD. You could probably build a device from 35mm adapter parts easily enough though. It's basically a static 35mm adapter without the ground glass, so it should be easy enough.

Kurth Bousman · February 3rd, 2006, 10:44 AM

Joel - for the telecine part , you don't need to establish a focal plane between the projector and camera - you use a condenser lens - go to www.filmshooting.com - lots of threads devoted to diy telecine. Second , for getting 35mm dof on s8 - i've shot alot of s8 and I don't think , no. 1 , s8 has enough res to make it worth while and then there is the difficulty of macro focusing the camera on the adapter. Maybe a beaulieu 4008 zm2 or a canon 1014 xls could possibly do this. A beaulieu might be able to be rigged w/o the lens - with a condenser instead losing some of the length. However all the problems and questionable benefits aside - I'd just shoot 16. It's not that much more expensive these days to shooting s8 esp. if your're using one of the pro8mm stocks . Kodak has just released new s8 film to replace k40. In all the s8 forums , I never heard someone say " s8 would look more like film if it just had more dof ". If you want to shoot s8 , then I'd concentrate on getting the best exposures coupled with the best telecine.Then it looks reasonably good. Not half as good as 16mm however. Even 16 doesn't have good dof characteristics like 35mm , but I never heard someone say , it would look more like 35mm film if it had more dof. Of course , if Justin wants to try to shoot s8 with a 35mm adapter , cool , but it won't look more like 35mm film. It will probably look like worse s8. Just my free two cents. Kurth

Chris Hurd · February 3rd, 2006, 11:19 AM

Thread title changed from "Mini35 for telecine?" to "Adapter for telecine?" because I take it this doesn't actually refer to the P+S Technik Mini35.

Justine Haupt · February 3rd, 2006, 11:53 AM

Hmm, I guess I should chip back in here.

The main reason I brought this topic up was mainly because someone who already has a DOF adapter could easily aim a projector into it... I completely agree that eliminating the focal plane altogether is the best, but it seemed like this idea might make sense for someone who already has a working adapter and who doesn't want to spend money on a condensor lens. I really don't think the quality with a moving GG would be that much lower than projecting straight into the camera... I mean, certainly it would be better than shooting onto a static GG.

Kurth, thanks for those links, I'm especially interested now that I know there are others experimenting/doing telecine transfers at home... but I just can't afford an actual transfer system right now, hence my existence on this forum ;) The idea about using the mini35 on a super8 camera was just an idea I'd like to try (if for no reason but to say I did it)... it just seemed like an interesting thing to do, but I tend to agree that it probably doesn't have much practical purpose, given the existence of 16mm (I'd like to invest in an Eclair eventually, anyway).

The mini35 I was referring to isn't a P+S... Joel was righ).t, it's one I'm working on myself (but I expect it to be something to be reckoned with... I'm actually off to the lathe for a few hours right now)

P.S. I don't know why they changed the title either.

Andrew Todd · February 3rd, 2006, 02:01 PM

im going to try it ... it sould sure beat filming the projected image off of the screen

Justine Haupt · February 3rd, 2006, 06:51 PM

Be sure to tell us how it comes out! :)

Andrew Todd · February 3rd, 2006, 09:24 PM

i just got home and tried it out with my letus adapter... i usually film off the screen with my camera for cheap telecine transfers. so this was cool for me to try... the problem which i figured would happen did happen. when using a vibrating gg and trying to film a tv or a pc screen.. zoom out a bit and you'll notice the gg seems to have slowed down and looks wobbly.. and the grain reappears. same for my 8mm projector.. becasue of frame rate. it also was hard to focus so close as well.. the only way to get a decent picture was to move the adapter back some but then you're losing part of the frame.. it did look like a nice image backed up though... flicker was a lot less noticable and it seemed much clearer than a wall/screen projection. i think this would work well if you built an adapter with a larger gg ... like twice as big as the one that comes in the letus.. and possibly a spinning adapter or a static microcrystalline wax adapter might perform better.

Bob Hart · February 3rd, 2006, 09:57 PM

Sony's old flavour of a home telecine was the VCR16. This was a 90 reflecting layout, a 6mm C-mount video lens on a approx 7m thick spacerwith a c-mount on one tube for the image to camera and a two element condenser/ close-up lens arrangement in another tube into which the projector was pointed.

I actually used this lens set for my first AGUS tests. It seems to be of about 7+ power.

But critically, there was also included, the darkest, blackest ND filter I have ever seen, as dark as welding glass. Put a rreally strong ND filter in the path between the projector and the groundglass.

With such a strong light coming in, I suspect your camera is over-riding manual settings and increasing the shutter speed which is then freezing the groundglass movement.

An alternative may be to make a fixed iris out of thin metal and install this between the film plane and the projector lens. In the back of the projector lens itself may be close enough. A side effect may be slightly better resolution of the projected image.

In your telecine application, you have the complication of the groundglass. It should probably be taken out of the path.

With projected film, you already have a non-coherent version of the original scene, the purpose of the groundglass for video, so you don't need another generation which can only introduce resolution loss for no other gains.

With better brains than mine at work in the universe, give regard to these comments only until something better comes along.

Andrew Todd · February 3rd, 2006, 11:24 PM

my camera sold a few weeks ago and im waiting for my xl1s in the mail.. the test was without a camera.. just my observation through the vibrating gg.. if you have one put it infront of a tv or pc screen.. you see what i mean.. the grain comes back and the movement goes wobbly

Kurth Bousman · February 4th, 2006, 11:51 AM

>>>But critically, there was also included, the darkest, blackest ND filter I have ever seen, as dark as welding glass. Put a rreally strong ND filter in the path between the projector and the groundglass.<<<
Bob- that seems to be the first thing diy telecine machine makers do , is change the bulb to a much weaker one.
http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/
Checkout this link for a diy telecine makers instructions. Kurth

Andrew Todd · February 4th, 2006, 12:01 PM

does anyone recommend a certain condenser lens? they seem really cheap on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/SET-OF-9-INCH-DO...QQcmdZViewItem

February 1st, 2006, 07:23 PM	#1
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Adapter for telecine? Has anyone tried it? I've used a piece of GG (static) in the past to back project onto for the camera, but it occured to me that a moving Mini35 could work incredibly well if the projector could be brought into focus close enough to make such a small frame -- even if some kind of specialty lens is needed on the projector, it seems like an interesting idea for anyone shooting on film and not wanting to pay for an expensive transfer. My adapter isn't finished, so I can't try it myself, but does anyone have experience with this that they can speak from? And as an aside, I'd also been curious about shooting on super 8 with a mini35... has it been done? The DOF charadteristics of 8mm are similar to 1/3", and that's something else I want to try once my dang adapter is finally finished. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

February 2nd, 2006, 09:39 AM	#2
Andrew Todd Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Saint John, CANADA Posts: 633	thats a cool idea.. i have a super 8 cam and the projector.. i know kodak just stopped producing the film last year.. do you know where i could find some? __________________ video : xl2 / letus35xl / bogen 503 photo- canon 1dmkII - bronica etrsi

February 3rd, 2006, 11:19 AM	#7
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Thread title changed from "Mini35 for telecine?" to "Adapter for telecine?" because I take it this doesn't actually refer to the P+S Technik Mini35. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 3rd, 2006, 11:53 AM	#8
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Hmm, I guess I should chip back in here. The main reason I brought this topic up was mainly because someone who already has a DOF adapter could easily aim a projector into it... I completely agree that eliminating the focal plane altogether is the best, but it seemed like this idea might make sense for someone who already has a working adapter and who doesn't want to spend money on a condensor lens. I really don't think the quality with a moving GG would be that much lower than projecting straight into the camera... I mean, certainly it would be better than shooting onto a static GG. Kurth, thanks for those links, I'm especially interested now that I know there are others experimenting/doing telecine transfers at home... but I just can't afford an actual transfer system right now, hence my existence on this forum ;) The idea about using the mini35 on a super8 camera was just an idea I'd like to try (if for no reason but to say I did it)... it just seemed like an interesting thing to do, but I tend to agree that it probably doesn't have much practical purpose, given the existence of 16mm (I'd like to invest in an Eclair eventually, anyway). The mini35 I was referring to isn't a P+S... Joel was righ).t, it's one I'm working on myself (but I expect it to be something to be reckoned with... I'm actually off to the lathe for a few hours right now) P.S. I don't know why they changed the title either. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

February 3rd, 2006, 02:01 PM	#9
Andrew Todd Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Saint John, CANADA Posts: 633	im going to try it ... it sould sure beat filming the projected image off of the screen __________________ video : xl2 / letus35xl / bogen 503 photo- canon 1dmkII - bronica etrsi

February 2nd, 2006, 01:58 PM	#3
Paul Jefferies Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Croydon, England Posts: 277	Hi, Kodak hasn't discontinued all super-8, only the kodachrome 40. You can still get the 125 colour stock, and b/w stocks, plus negative stocks, in the UK you can get them from this place: www.widescreen-centre.co.uk

February 2nd, 2006, 02:40 PM	#4
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	To telecine you don't need a physical focus screen between the projector and video camera , only a condenser lens. It's the most wasteful idea I've heard of- sorry. If you've got a p&s , or any other adapter, then attach it to a hdv camera. If you want to do telecine , then check out http://www.moviestuff.tv/8mm_telecine.html. - Kurth

February 2nd, 2006, 09:54 PM	#5
Joel Kreisel Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 44	Kurth, he's not talking about an actual P+S Mini35. He was just using it to generally refer to all 35mm adapters, right Justin? (I mean, why on earth would he be building one if he had a P+S?) That said, I think he's right. The screen is only necessary to achieve a 35mm target size so we can get DOF on video. When doing telecine, the DOF is already there so all you really need to do is get the image straight to the CCD. You could probably build a device from 35mm adapter parts easily enough though. It's basically a static 35mm adapter without the ground glass, so it should be easy enough.

February 3rd, 2006, 10:44 AM	#6
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Joel - for the telecine part , you don't need to establish a focal plane between the projector and camera - you use a condenser lens - go to www.filmshooting.com - lots of threads devoted to diy telecine. Second , for getting 35mm dof on s8 - i've shot alot of s8 and I don't think , no. 1 , s8 has enough res to make it worth while and then there is the difficulty of macro focusing the camera on the adapter. Maybe a beaulieu 4008 zm2 or a canon 1014 xls could possibly do this. A beaulieu might be able to be rigged w/o the lens - with a condenser instead losing some of the length. However all the problems and questionable benefits aside - I'd just shoot 16. It's not that much more expensive these days to shooting s8 esp. if your're using one of the pro8mm stocks . Kodak has just released new s8 film to replace k40. In all the s8 forums , I never heard someone say " s8 would look more like film if it just had more dof ". If you want to shoot s8 , then I'd concentrate on getting the best exposures coupled with the best telecine.Then it looks reasonably good. Not half as good as 16mm however. Even 16 doesn't have good dof characteristics like 35mm , but I never heard someone say , it would look more like 35mm film if it had more dof. Of course , if Justin wants to try to shoot s8 with a 35mm adapter , cool , but it won't look more like 35mm film. It will probably look like worse s8. Just my free two cents. Kurth

February 3rd, 2006, 06:51 PM	#10
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	Be sure to tell us how it comes out! :) __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

February 3rd, 2006, 09:24 PM	#11
Andrew Todd Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Saint John, CANADA Posts: 633	i just got home and tried it out with my letus adapter... i usually film off the screen with my camera for cheap telecine transfers. so this was cool for me to try... the problem which i figured would happen did happen. when using a vibrating gg and trying to film a tv or a pc screen.. zoom out a bit and you'll notice the gg seems to have slowed down and looks wobbly.. and the grain reappears. same for my 8mm projector.. becasue of frame rate. it also was hard to focus so close as well.. the only way to get a decent picture was to move the adapter back some but then you're losing part of the frame.. it did look like a nice image backed up though... flicker was a lot less noticable and it seemed much clearer than a wall/screen projection. i think this would work well if you built an adapter with a larger gg ... like twice as big as the one that comes in the letus.. and possibly a spinning adapter or a static microcrystalline wax adapter might perform better. __________________ video : xl2 / letus35xl / bogen 503 photo- canon 1dmkII - bronica etrsi

February 3rd, 2006, 09:57 PM	#12
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Sony's old flavour of a home telecine was the VCR16. This was a 90 reflecting layout, a 6mm C-mount video lens on a approx 7m thick spacerwith a c-mount on one tube for the image to camera and a two element condenser/ close-up lens arrangement in another tube into which the projector was pointed. I actually used this lens set for my first AGUS tests. It seems to be of about 7+ power. But critically, there was also included, the darkest, blackest ND filter I have ever seen, as dark as welding glass. Put a rreally strong ND filter in the path between the projector and the groundglass. With such a strong light coming in, I suspect your camera is over-riding manual settings and increasing the shutter speed which is then freezing the groundglass movement. An alternative may be to make a fixed iris out of thin metal and install this between the film plane and the projector lens. In the back of the projector lens itself may be close enough. A side effect may be slightly better resolution of the projected image. In your telecine application, you have the complication of the groundglass. It should probably be taken out of the path. With projected film, you already have a non-coherent version of the original scene, the purpose of the groundglass for video, so you don't need another generation which can only introduce resolution loss for no other gains. With better brains than mine at work in the universe, give regard to these comments only until something better comes along.

February 3rd, 2006, 11:24 PM	#13
Andrew Todd Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Saint John, CANADA Posts: 633	my camera sold a few weeks ago and im waiting for my xl1s in the mail.. the test was without a camera.. just my observation through the vibrating gg.. if you have one put it infront of a tv or pc screen.. you see what i mean.. the grain comes back and the movement goes wobbly __________________ video : xl2 / letus35xl / bogen 503 photo- canon 1dmkII - bronica etrsi

February 4th, 2006, 11:51 AM	#14
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	>>>But critically, there was also included, the darkest, blackest ND filter I have ever seen, as dark as welding glass. Put a rreally strong ND filter in the path between the projector and the groundglass.<<< Bob- that seems to be the first thing diy telecine machine makers do , is change the bulb to a much weaker one. http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/diytelecine/ Checkout this link for a diy telecine makers instructions. Kurth

February 4th, 2006, 12:01 PM	#15
Andrew Todd Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Saint John, CANADA Posts: 633	does anyone recommend a certain condenser lens? they seem really cheap on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/SET-OF-9-INCH-DO...QQcmdZViewItem __________________ video : xl2 / letus35xl / bogen 503 photo- canon 1dmkII - bronica etrsi