Andromeda + DVX100A Resolution Chart... at DVinfo.net

Juan P. Pertierra · February 1st, 2006, 12:07 PM

...is available here:

http://forum.reel-stream.com/viewtopic.php?t=363

Cheers,
Juan

Soeren Mueller · February 5th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Sorry is it just me or are there too many "fanboys" on the Reel-Stream Forum lately?! I mean of course the uncompressed output and the increased contrast range are great features of the Andromeda Mod - but it clearly lacks resolution in comparison to the other HD(V) cams - especially the Canon HL1 and the HVX200!

Justine Haupt · February 5th, 2006, 08:34 AM

That's true, I wasn't impressed with the Andromeda resolution at all.

Juan P. Pertierra · February 5th, 2006, 02:41 PM

Just to be sure we're on the same page, what number do you see from each chart?

It is well known that the XL-H1 has a very large horizontal resolution which exceeds all the other prosumer cams, but only about 600 lines vertical in 24F mode.

Specially for the HVX200, what is your reasoning and how are you reading the charts. Andromeda clearly has a lot more horizontal resolution. The vertical resolution in Barry's chart looks about the same to me but that was shot at DETAIL +7. Adam Wilt got much lower numbers in the 550x550 range when he did the DV.com test.

Cheers,
Juan

Soeren Mueller · February 5th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Well there's quite heavy upsampling going on at the Sculptor output Juan... I don't know what combination of algorithms you apply lately. However in the contrasty lines there's clearly heavy aliasing to be seen! Nothing which is present in the native HVX or HL1 output.
I'm sorry but to me it was evident when you first started with all the upsampling thing getting bigger and bigger that it sort of got out of your hand. Of course it's ok to employ the pixel shift and try to get the most out of it... but what you have built into sculptor now... well I don't know. It's as if you built in some sort of S-Spline Pro ;-) .. and that's not what I think should be in this kind of device & software - or perhaps let me rephrase: at least you shouldn't make a comparison based on these upsampled grabs!

To me it looks like the Andromeda is only interesting any more if you really need the uncompressed digital output and the increased dynamic range.
I haven't read the dv.com test completely yet but I've seen all the grabs in their native res and strangely this is the most unsharp HVX grabs/footage I've seen so far. Barrys grabs looked much better.

Juan P. Pertierra · February 5th, 2006, 06:25 PM

Hello Soeren,

Quote:

this is the most unsharp HVX grabs/footage I've seen so far. Barrys grabs looked much better.

This -IS- Barry's grab. The EIA HVX resolution chart we have posted on the forum was not only shot by Barry Green, but it is the only resolution chart shot on the HVX to date that shows more than 550-600 lines vertical. It might be due to different shooting conditions, or the fact that detail was set at +7, i don't know. This was a resolution test, so we posted the best HVX resolution results to date. I could've posted the DV.com results, but those results put the HVX at 500x550 lines, which is the resolution you get out of the DV output from the DVX! If you have an HVX EIA chart that shows better results, then send it our way and we'll post it.

I'm sorry, but the rest of your comments are not based on actual facts and data. The HVX has been publicly advertised by Panasonic to employ oversampling to achieve 1080. They even had a powerpoint presentation on which one of the points was along the lines that "a ccd is an analog device that can be sampled at any frequency".

On the other hand, I can post the direct output from the A/D converters for each CCD from the DVX for the exact same EIA resolution chart shot. You will see 3 770x492 images which resolve about 550-500 lines more or less in both directions.

Our algorithm does no upsampling. It uses the native resolution of the imaging block which is 1540x984, and if you look at the same data after it has been interpreted in this manner, you will see a huge increase in the number of resolved lines. In essence, more resolving power, and a -different- image, not the same image enlarged.

Everybody here knows that you simply cannot get more real resolution(definition) by upsampling or simply using a program like S-Spline Pro on your images. This is not theory, but actual hard facts. The upsampled rez chart image will show the exact same number of defined lines. This is not the case with our system at all.

If you disagree, i'd be happy to post the actual raw data for each CCD for the rez chart.

Cheers,
Juan

Soeren Mueller · February 7th, 2006, 07:48 AM

Sorry for not being clearer - with "this is the most unsharp HVX grabs/footage" I meant the dv.com "report" of course!

And yes of course I also know that you can't gain more resolution by upsampling - as I stated a while back I'm a software developer myself and have already developed plugins for After Effects and Digital Fusion and did a mixed S-Spline like/Lanczos implementation myself and so I think I know what I'm talking about.

So you don't see all the aliasing in your Andromeda res chart grab and argue their existence? ;)

I'm really a fan of the Andromeda - or more "was" a fan of it. I'm just a little upset about the "marketing" that you're doing lately that looks pretty much like you have to compensate for the fact that you simply took too much time developing the Andromeda imho. Of course getting uncompressed footage is a big feature and the increased dynamic range - as already stated earlier. However as you noticed yourself getting increased resolution (especially in NTSC world it makes a big difference of course ;o) is a biiiiig feature for many customers. But now there are so many alternatives out there to get higher res for little money.
If at least the Andromeda would work without a notebook/host computer I think it could be much more of a success - but having the same need now as eg. the HVX currently has if you want continous recording time is sort of a no-no. And I guess it won't take long and a firestore or adapter will be out so you can use portable harddisks directly with the HVX without the need for a computer.
I really hope you will be fast enough with getting a new Andromeda version out that doesn't need a host computer or that even works with all the new HDV/DVCProHD cams...

As Barry already stated - for what it does the Andromeda is currently really overpriced.

Good luck!

Cheers,
-Sören

Juan P. Pertierra · February 7th, 2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

for what it does the Andromeda is currently really overpriced.

If that is true, then what is the competing Digital Uncompressed 4:4:4 12-bit HD Acuisition solution? If it is overpriced, what possible setup can you now readily buy that will give you the same type of digital, uncompressed 4:4:4 footage, with this much dynamic range, etc.

Good luck looking for that one. :)

Forrest Schultz · February 7th, 2006, 11:06 PM

im all for ya Juan, Soeren Mueller is just being an asehole.

when i get enough money saved, a dvx and your upgrade is what im getting for sure. add my 35mm adapter, and i'll be making some sweet hollywood quality films.

Soeren Mueller · February 8th, 2006, 04:15 AM

Juan, that always sounds like you're selling a Viper or Genesis for 3.000 Bucks! ;) Of course there's the optics, size of the CCDs etc.pp. of course if you need uncompressed 12-bit currently for sub-10k there's no way around the Andromeda. But it's simply my opinion that it's overpriced! Perhaps the host mode USB would already have made a difference - or if it would work with any of the newer (nearly ;o) HD camcorders I'd shut up immediately.

@Forrest - *lol* .. thanks! I like you too! Yakshemash!

Dean Harrington · February 9th, 2006, 05:39 PM

the only guy to give us 4;4;4 in a sub-$10,000 camera. That in itself is a major breakthrough! I'd like to see an HVX modification come about and of course, I'd love the whole process to drop a bit in price but I'll have to wait for that to happen.
I'm curious what dynamic range would come out of an HVX with the Andromeda modification?

John Jay · February 9th, 2006, 07:07 PM

Juan,

I wonder whether you can apply all your knowledgebase with Andromeda to something like a Nikon D70 - instant Academy with a huge choice of glass and shallow DOF as standard

I guess the issue you have at present is too much big name competition with Andromeda

however with a Nikon D70 or such - different story

February 1st, 2006, 12:07 PM	#1
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Andromeda + DVX100A Resolution Chart... ...is available here: http://forum.reel-stream.com/viewtopic.php?t=363 Cheers, Juan __________________ Juan P. Pertierra www.reel-stream.com

February 5th, 2006, 08:34 AM	#3
Justine Haupt Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 208	That's true, I wasn't impressed with the Andromeda resolution at all. __________________ ~Justine "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams" -Arthur O'Shaunessey (as quoted by Willy Wonka)

February 5th, 2006, 02:41 PM	#4
Juan P. Pertierra Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 479	Just to be sure we're on the same page, what number do you see from each chart? It is well known that the XL-H1 has a very large horizontal resolution which exceeds all the other prosumer cams, but only about 600 lines vertical in 24F mode. Specially for the HVX200, what is your reasoning and how are you reading the charts. Andromeda clearly has a lot more horizontal resolution. The vertical resolution in Barry's chart looks about the same to me but that was shot at DETAIL +7. Adam Wilt got much lower numbers in the 550x550 range when he did the DV.com test. Cheers, Juan __________________ Juan P. Pertierra www.reel-stream.com

February 9th, 2006, 05:39 PM	#11
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Juan is ..... the only guy to give us 4;4;4 in a sub-$10,000 camera. That in itself is a major breakthrough! I'd like to see an HVX modification come about and of course, I'd love the whole process to drop a bit in price but I'll have to wait for that to happen. I'm curious what dynamic range would come out of an HVX with the Andromeda modification?

February 9th, 2006, 07:07 PM	#12
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Juan, I wonder whether you can apply all your knowledgebase with Andromeda to something like a Nikon D70 - instant Academy with a huge choice of glass and shallow DOF as standard I guess the issue you have at present is too much big name competition with Andromeda however with a Nikon D70 or such - different story __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

February 5th, 2006, 07:46 AM	#2
Soeren Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany / Denver, CO Posts: 137	Sorry is it just me or are there too many "fanboys" on the Reel-Stream Forum lately?! I mean of course the uncompressed output and the increased contrast range are great features of the Andromeda Mod - but it clearly lacks resolution in comparison to the other HD(V) cams - especially the Canon HL1 and the HVX200!

February 5th, 2006, 05:16 PM	#5
Soeren Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany / Denver, CO Posts: 137	Well there's quite heavy upsampling going on at the Sculptor output Juan... I don't know what combination of algorithms you apply lately. However in the contrasty lines there's clearly heavy aliasing to be seen! Nothing which is present in the native HVX or HL1 output. I'm sorry but to me it was evident when you first started with all the upsampling thing getting bigger and bigger that it sort of got out of your hand. Of course it's ok to employ the pixel shift and try to get the most out of it... but what you have built into sculptor now... well I don't know. It's as if you built in some sort of S-Spline Pro ;-) .. and that's not what I think should be in this kind of device & software - or perhaps let me rephrase: at least you shouldn't make a comparison based on these upsampled grabs! To me it looks like the Andromeda is only interesting any more if you really need the uncompressed digital output and the increased dynamic range. I haven't read the dv.com test completely yet but I've seen all the grabs in their native res and strangely this is the most unsharp HVX grabs/footage I've seen so far. Barrys grabs looked much better.

February 7th, 2006, 07:48 AM	#7
Soeren Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany / Denver, CO Posts: 137	Sorry for not being clearer - with "this is the most unsharp HVX grabs/footage" I meant the dv.com "report" of course! And yes of course I also know that you can't gain more resolution by upsampling - as I stated a while back I'm a software developer myself and have already developed plugins for After Effects and Digital Fusion and did a mixed S-Spline like/Lanczos implementation myself and so I think I know what I'm talking about. So you don't see all the aliasing in your Andromeda res chart grab and argue their existence? ;) I'm really a fan of the Andromeda - or more "was" a fan of it. I'm just a little upset about the "marketing" that you're doing lately that looks pretty much like you have to compensate for the fact that you simply took too much time developing the Andromeda imho. Of course getting uncompressed footage is a big feature and the increased dynamic range - as already stated earlier. However as you noticed yourself getting increased resolution (especially in NTSC world it makes a big difference of course ;o) is a biiiiig feature for many customers. But now there are so many alternatives out there to get higher res for little money. If at least the Andromeda would work without a notebook/host computer I think it could be much more of a success - but having the same need now as eg. the HVX currently has if you want continous recording time is sort of a no-no. And I guess it won't take long and a firestore or adapter will be out so you can use portable harddisks directly with the HVX without the need for a computer. I really hope you will be fast enough with getting a new Andromeda version out that doesn't need a host computer or that even works with all the new HDV/DVCProHD cams... As Barry already stated - for what it does the Andromeda is currently really overpriced. Good luck! Cheers, -Sören

February 7th, 2006, 11:06 PM	#9
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	im all for ya Juan, Soeren Mueller is just being an asehole. when i get enough money saved, a dvx and your upgrade is what im getting for sure. add my 35mm adapter, and i'll be making some sweet hollywood quality films.

February 8th, 2006, 04:15 AM	#10
Soeren Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany / Denver, CO Posts: 137	Juan, that always sounds like you're selling a Viper or Genesis for 3.000 Bucks! ;) Of course there's the optics, size of the CCDs etc.pp. of course if you need uncompressed 12-bit currently for sub-10k there's no way around the Andromeda. But it's simply my opinion that it's overpriced! Perhaps the host mode USB would already have made a difference - or if it would work with any of the newer (nearly ;o) HD camcorders I'd shut up immediately. @Forrest - lol .. thanks! I like you too! Yakshemash!