HDV camera compatability with mini35

[Levan Bakhia]

Should Mini35 have problems with HDV cameras? Like xl h1? Maybe the groundglass quality is not good enough, to support higher resolution, or something that should be considered...

[R.P. Cuenco]

P+S has the Mini35 on an FX1/Z1U so I doubt that the ground glass quality isnt good enough for an XL H1.

[Nick Hiltgen]

There is more resolution on the xl-h1 then z1u, Unless you really like grain it seems to me that the current level of ground glass is a little too big. but that's only my opinion.

[Levan Bakhia]

I tried mini 35 with xl h1, and it is very grainy. I will post some footage tomorrow. I have never used mini35 before. The reason why I get too much grain is maybe because I am not experience with mini35. So, does it have anything to do with experience if you know? I wonder if, I used it with XL2 would I end up with so much grain anyways?

Any hint?

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Nick - what is the difference of resolution for the Z1 and the H1? And do you know if the JVC has more or less rez than the H1?

Levan - which version of mini35 are you using, 300 or 400? What lens are you using and what is your f-stop setting for your test? Also what is your relay lens set to? Please post some footage or a couple of still frames. I'm very curious to see this.

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia

Should Mini35 have problems with HDV cameras? Like xl h1? Maybe the groundglass quality is not good enough, to support higher resolution, or something that should be considered...

I don’t really think the ground glass is the biggest problem.
I’m more worried about their relay lens. It doesn’t matter how sharp the taking lens (Nikon or PL) may be. It doesn’t matter how good the ground glass may be, if the relay lens is not good enough, the image won’t be all it can be. In the case of the fixed lens cameras we all know the image is handicapped anyways. But in the case of the XL2, XL-H1 and HD100, the exchangeable lens feature makes it possible to lose the handicapped stock lenses. I’m pretty sure this will solve the problem for the XL2, but I’m not so sure it will do the same for the H1 and HD100. With all the talking about how the stock Fuji in the HD100 is not good enough for HD and how hard and expensive it would be to make a set of primes for it, along with the fact the optional lenses cost over 10k, I was thinking;
The complete Mini35 cost around $10,300 at ZGC. The whole thing, adapter, PL mount, relay lens, rods etc. The connecting kit for the HD100 or H1 and all XL cameras cost $2,500. That includes the relay lens plus all the brackets and things needed to connect the camera to the adapter. Let’s say the lens is 75% of this price or $1875. So I ask, if a good HD lens for a 1/3”camera is so hard and expensive to make, how can the mini35 relay lens be a good lens for HD for that price? SD zooms cost as much. Zeiss Digiprimes cost probably three or four times that? But they are supposed to be easier to engineer because they are made for bigger CCDs, so they don’t need to be as sharp, but they cost much more? What does that tell you? The HD100 optional 13x zoom, which is said to be a good lens cost 10k. I know zooms are more expensive but still. It’s hard to believe the Mini35 relay lens could meet the rigorous specifications of a 1/3” HD lens for that price. Just food for thought.
So my guess for an answer to your question is yes, the Mini35 should have a problem to resolve HD resolutions.
The Pro35 may be a different story or it better be. Since it’s made to use with the F900 and Varicam and cost almost $30,000, it better be good enough for HD. I hope it doesn’t use the same relay lens and optical elements, otherwise I can’t see why the huge price difference from the Mini35. I’m sure the price difference is mostly due to a better relay lens and better optical elements in general. The thing is the Pro35 was probably made with HD in mind, while the Mini35 most likely wasn’t, and I don’t think anything changed when HD resolution became available at 1/3” chip sizes. I bet the relay lens is the same for both XL2 and the HD cameras, as they cost the same price. I bet the relay lens is actually the same since the old XL1 actually.
Maybe I’m thinking too much, I don’t know. Maybe Guy Genin could elaborate a little about that.
Wow, anyway, that turned into a long post. Better stop here.

[John Colette]

Actually that's avery interesting point Michael - I have been wondering about the H1 relay lens fo a while.

The Z1's lens is actually pretty marginal - there is a LOT of chromatic abberation with areas of contrast & brightness shift. This doesn't help the mini 35 at HD res AT ALL...

Some guys in Italy chopped the lens off an FX1 and put a Fuginon lens on one - and the resuts were remarkable! I think that ANY 1/3" HD / HDv camera is a marginal imaging device if you are getting really picky - no question you get 95% of a much more expensive camera for a fraction of the price - and I think that HD is a little overhyped as a medium - know anyone looking at is in their living room? I don't. Best case here is digital cable crunched to MPEG2 and multiplexed on the coax. Or DVD...

So I wouldn't think that the HDV cameras are a "fix" for sudden magical blowups to 35mm - except in the style of say "Series 7" or "Base Moi" - films that use the Dv look without flinching - even play it up. If you are putting the resources into cinema release you have sailed past the Mini35 ballpark in my opinon - but that doesn't mean that they aren't a good tool for Music video - corporate video or short films that make the most of the look they offer.

I doubt that P+S have done much to the relay lens since the XL2 version [I may be wrong] but they may be looking at improving the design. At the moment the Canon kit seems to be the same as it ever was for SD - and maybe SD's the best ballpark for the Mini35?

Just a thought. Nothing wrong with good SD :-)

[Levan Bakhia]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

I don’t really think the ground glass is the biggest problem.
I’m more worried about their relay lens. It doesn’t matter how sharp the taking lens (Nikon or PL) may be. It doesn’t matter how good the ground glass may be, if the relay lens is not good enough, the image won’t be all it can be. In the case of the fixed lens cameras we all know the image is handicapped anyways. But in the case of the XL2, XL-H1 and HD100, the exchangeable lens feature makes it possible to lose the handicapped stock lenses. I’m pretty sure this will solve the problem for the XL2, but I’m not so sure it will do the same for the H1 and HD100. With all the talking about how the stock Fuji in the HD100 is not good enough for HD and how hard and expensive it would be to make a set of primes for it, along with the fact the optional lenses cost over 10k, I was thinking;
The complete Mini35 cost around $10,300 at ZGC. The whole thing, adapter, PL mount, relay lens, rods etc. The connecting kit for the HD100 or H1 and all XL cameras cost $2,500. That includes the relay lens plus all the brackets and things needed to connect the camera to the adapter. Let’s say the lens is 75% of this price or $1875. So I ask, if a good HD lens for a 1/3”camera is so hard and expensive to make, how can the mini35 relay lens be a good lens for HD for that price? SD zooms cost as much. Zeiss Digiprimes cost probably three or four times that? But they are supposed to be easier to engineer because they are made for bigger CCDs, so they don’t need to be as sharp, but they cost much more? What does that tell you? The HD100 optional 13x zoom, which is said to be a good lens cost 10k. I know zooms are more expensive but still. It’s hard to believe the Mini35 relay lens could meet the rigorous specifications of a 1/3” HD lens for that price. Just food for thought.
So my guess for an answer to your question is yes, the Mini35 should have a problem to resolve HD resolutions.
The Pro35 may be a different story or it better be. Since it’s made to use with the F900 and Varicam and cost almost $30,000, it better be good enough for HD. I hope it doesn’t use the same relay lens and optical elements, otherwise I can’t see why the huge price difference from the Mini35. I’m sure the price difference is mostly due to a better relay lens and better optical elements in general. The thing is the Pro35 was probably made with HD in mind, while the Mini35 most likely wasn’t, and I don’t think anything changed when HD resolution became available at 1/3” chip sizes. I bet the relay lens is the same for both XL2 and the HD cameras, as they cost the same price. I bet the relay lens is actually the same since the old XL1 actually.
Maybe I’m thinking too much, I don’t know. Maybe Guy Genin could elaborate a little about that.
Wow, anyway, that turned into a long post. Better stop here.

Good point. But, I don't think this could be a reason for having or not having grain in the picture. All the relay lens could do is decrease the resolution. Am I right?

[Levan Bakhia]

I have some good demos of h1 with mini35. So, if someone could share space I could upload them. I don't see any more harsh grain in the pictures, and I think, it came from experimenting a lot. And I like the picture very much, it is very filmlike.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Levan,

I'll email you shortly with FTP information so you can upload some clips. This is full T1 to Internet, very fast. ;)

Once you're done I'll post the URL here.

What changes did you make to improve the quality? I'm looking at upgrading my XL2/mini35 to the HD version but am waiting to hear (and see) more from others. My biggest issue with mini35 has always been the amount of light required to shoot with narrow depth of field. Unless the sun is in your indoor set shooting f5.6 - f8 is near impossible. Shooting wide open all the time is extremely painful for production.

I'll send you that email now.

[John Colette]

I agree on the Light issue Dennis - those suckers take a lot of light out of the room! - and working wide open all of the time is not really practical - the depth of field device become an albatross at times!

I am looking at the H1 for the mini 35 because the Sony has an extra lens AFTER the relay lens to deal with. Once you zoom into the picture to deal with falloff [Aploogies to Cherles P - I called it "vignetting" in another post] and the image *does* fall of a little at the edges - the SONY HDV sits at about 2.6 apeture, and then you have a lot of pretty sketchy Mass produced Zeiss glass to go through.

I am wondering about the relay lens for the H1 [after Michael's post] and what that might do to improve or impede the H1's ability.

Love the SDI out on the H1 and LOVE the timecode out. AZ black box [UK] timecode transmitter to the new Tascam compact flash recorder and you have run recorded timecode stamped double system sound. That's huge for drama and doco work. Huge. Forget HDv audio - those flash recorders [I have the Fostex] are great for dialogue!

Anyway - end of the day people look at the Mini35 pictures from the SONY HDV and pop - WOW ! soooo much resolution! My eye is more critical - and working SD is still really a good option to my mind.

The bag of worms is then focus - not geared lenses - but getting hold of the P+S breakout for a DXF 801 electronic viewfinder - oor using a marshall HD [ish] LCD field monitor - or even a proper CRT / calibrated maontor for focus - sort of all compounds things with the critical focus for HD....and the over compressed HDV signal and.......

I *mostly* accept that the box is really designed for SD [and rocks at that].

[Levan Bakhia]

Dennis,

I didn't recieve any e-mail. I am not sure why, but please send me one to levan@sarke.ge

I will post details on how I did shoot all of the clips, and what configurations I had. I will do that to each of the clip.

[Levan Bakhia]

Dennis,

I didn't recieve any e-mail. I am not sure why, but please send me one to levan@sarke.ge

I will post details on how I did shoot all of the clips, and what configurations I had. I will do that to each of the clip.

[Dennis Hingsberg]

I originally sent the email the DVinfo, not even sure how it works. Anyway I sent you a separate email last night with the FTP information.

There's 250MB there waiting for you on full T1 up and down.

Since I'm considering the eventual upgrade to HD for my mini35 and would like to consider this my "last" DV purchase for a long while now - I can't wait to see these clips.

[Levan Bakhia]

Here is the file you can download. It is an indoor shot as you will see, with a lot of dark areas in the picture. And in times the guy goes out of the focus. This is because, I have noticed that outdoor shots with a lot of light, have no problem with grain (also I have daylight shots, but there is not enough space to upload all), also grain tends to appear on darker parts of the image, and also when something in the picture is out of focus. So, I tried to solve that problem, so see for yourself, I think I overdid it, because now I think it is very clean, I think some more grain might not harm the picture.

I will be waiting for your comments.

so I am not sure if I write the link correctly but I uploaded the file to: http://209.82.46.115/H1+mini35.mov

It will take about 5 more hours to upload. so be patient.