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#1 |
Obstreperous Rex
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Seeking feedback for two uncompressed camera systems.
Note: This is *not* related to the RED Digital Cinema project. This is something else entirely.
Forwarded to me to share with all of you: A company developing two uncompressed camera systems would like some feedback from DV Info members regarding interest in their camera systems. One system, with a 35mm imager, is targeted at the higher end cinema market. The second system, equipped with a 16mm sized imager, is targeted at the higher end (H)DV camera market. The cameras will capture to onboard proprietary digital recorders, each with 45+ minutes of recording space. Extra recorder magazines are purchasable separately, and can be "hotswapped" while shooting. A camera and recorder make up a complete "camera system." 35MM SYSTEM: 2048x1556 frame size True 24P. (no rolling shutter) Lossless 16bit format Built-in full resolution viewfinder with exposure meter and histogram overlay DVI output for HD-monitor Manual lens mount in common formats 4 stereo 16bit/44hz audio inputs 16MM SYSTEM: 1280x1024 frame size True 24P. (no rolling shutter) Lossless 10bit format Built-in full resolution viewfinder with exposure meter and histogram overlay DVI output for HD-monitor Manual lens mount in common formats 4 stereo 16bit/44hz audio inputs 1. If a product has a strong feature set but less strong brand name recognition, how does that affect your decision to buy? 2. With the 16mm camera system initially priced at $19,000, and the 35mm camera system initially priced at $49,000, would you be likely to purchase either (and if so, which)? 3. Regarding storage format, assume each camera system as stated above records to only one possible format and bit depth. If each camera system was 10-20% more expensive, but offered 4-5 different real time recording formats at several bit depths (Tiff, OpenEXR, JPEG2000, AVI, etc), would you be more or less likely to buy? What formats are most preferable to you? 4. If the above cameras were demonstrated in laboratory test environments to have dynamic range comparable to popular 35mm and 16mm film stocks, how would that affect your perception of the products and your willingness to purchase? |
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#2 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA.
Posts: 4,476
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Chris.
They might need to look at 48k audio, also 25P for PAL broadcast / DVD distribution. Given I have 16mm Super16 capable cameras, albeit old, if I were minded to use them, I can shoot a comfortable amount of film for the purchase price. Product support would need to be demonstrated to be prompt, possible and sound without comebacks or excessive downtime. If a companion interface or conversion box or a software equivalent was readily available for the common editing platforms already out there, the standalone camera recording system would be fine, especially if it confers the best performance and resolution. A simpler sealed standalone system should assist the manufacturer by avoiding licencing costs and in some security against piracy by bigger industry players who might be tempted to rip the tech and push it out there into the marketplace whilst using fincancial brute force to bog the developer's expensive litigation and ultimate settlement to the developer can be economically made after the profits are taken . I am assuming the removable storage magazines themselves may have a post-production docking system which integrates with existing industry hardware. If this convenient routing of the production is not easily to hand, then film people may stay with with what they know and trust, either flavours of Cinealta or motion film. The developers may need to bear in mind that there is a product in development right here in the west which would confer backwards-compatable filmlike dynamic range to existing popular camera hardware already out there. They might do well to contact this entity, perhaps with a view to integrating this product. The entity is found at www.livetechnologies.com.au. Will the camera head have a single dock for the hotswappable magazines or provide the capacity for two magazines, maybe even the ability as a master camera, to assign to a second magazine the same signal as a hedge against failure or transport loss or also to assign a second remote camera input to the second dock. All the above is bound to have been already considered but those are my thoughts. |
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#3 | ||||
Major Player
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 704
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Quote:
I can't stress enough though that a well though out post workflow is key. The thing that makes me nervous is seeing the word "proprietary." If this is a new company without much history behind it then who's to say they are going to be around for years after the camera's release? What if I need repairs, maintenence, or replacements on my 'proprietary' components? That's when brand recognition becomes much more important, and that is where new companies need to go out of their way to prove themselves to consumers. I can tell you right now that whatever this camera system is, it would be much more attractive if it did not use proprietary recording media. Quote:
If it were today, I would seriously consider the 16mm camera system. But if we're talking 2 years from now, well, it's a bit too difficult to forecast where I'll be and where technology will be at that point. Either way it's hard to say without seeing the details of the company, the image itself, and the proposed workflow. Quote:
I suppose it all depends on what the ONE format and bit depth would be. But of course I'd prefer 4-5, but I don't know if I'd go 10-20% above what you mentioned for it. Again, as long as there is a good and efficient workflow for the proposed formats, I'd use anything. I care more about a variety of bit depth and compression options than I do about the specifics of the file format. Whatever it takes to offer variations in compression and bit depth, that's what I'll take. Quote:
Seriously. Dynamic range is the biggest limiting factor with video in my opinion. Resolution options are high enough to compete with film now in my opinion, and there are workaround for the wide DOF... but dynamic range limitations are inescapable. If I had the option of buying a camera with the lattitude of film I would do it in a heartbeat. What would stop me from buying it? Proprietary recording media, workflow issues, and possibly price. PS. By the way - a histogram display... Awesome.
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Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas |
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#4 |
Obstreperous Rex
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Excellent input from Luis and Bob, many thanks fellows... anybody else?
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#5 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Belgium
Posts: 94
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Heart says yes to 16mm camera. Budget and revenue say perhaps in a couple of years. But definitely the reason not to buy an HD camera now.
At this point, it goes above my head. As I suppose it goes with a lot of people digging into 'Alternative imaging methods'. |
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#6 |
Trustee
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 1,961
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I am outpriced by either camera, personally, but a company I work for would probably go for the 16mm version but for this factor:
"The cameras will capture to onboard proprietary digital recorders," Proprietary is bad. It is really bad. If the cameras could output to a small hard drive that can be immediately connected to a computer for editing, they would have a larger customer base. The faster workflow alone would justify a large part of the cost. For your questions: 1. Customer support needs to be excellent for a complex device that costs as much as a car. Reputation can be built or destroyed quickly. The "beta" program needs to work the bugs out completely. It's not so big a deal for a $300 Letus35 to have problems, but a $20,000 camera needs to be working almost perfectly. 2. As I said above, maybe the 16mm for commercial production purposes. 3. The storage format needs to include conventional SD formats in some way, even if only through downsampling. The ONE format would need to be good and not too cumbersome. 4. Yes. The test images would also need to show this improvement. The imager would also need to have decent light sensitivity at least as good as film. One of the ways that video makes itself more cost effective is in the reduction in the quantity (not quality) of light needed. It should also be shoulder-mountable as to fit with current video camera support systems. A 50lb. jumble of boxes with cables all over the place won't work. |
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#7 |
Major Player
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: United Kindom, England
Posts: 290
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Amazing stuff, not related to RED can only mean there is going to be lots more contenders to this Super HD game!
From those specs it would be very appealing. However my only concern would be build quality and durability, because for that amount of money it would not be un-reasonable to ask to have precision engineered equipment at a level of say of a Cinealta or Varicam. That’s my feedback hope it helps Anhar
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The IT Ninja Learn, Teach, Grow.. |
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#8 |
Major Player
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 230
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To all of your questions the main and most important answer would be a returning question - " WHEN ? ".
1. If a product has a strong feature set but less strong brand name recognition, how does that affect your decision to buy? Now that non of strongly recognised brands have anything close to what you are talking about, I wouldn't care about brand, because every brand has started somehow and at some point in past they either didn't have any recognition. So if one is doing some good production work and wants something close to 35mm film I don't think he would care about the brand, as long as a new brand is offering good features. But as times goes by, strong brands will have to follow the market and come out with solutions like you described here. We all shouldn't think that for example SONY doesn't have enough resources (both human and financial) to creat such a camera, it is just that it will ruin all of their marketing plans. So, time is important here, as soon as SONY or CANON or JVC or any other brand will offer the same features as you described here, no one is going to go after your camera, even if yours will be some 20% cheaper. 2. With the 16mm camera system initially priced at $19,000, and the 35mm camera system initially priced at $49,000, would you be likely to purchase either (and if so, which)? For me both prices are fair. But considering my needs I would prefer to go with 35mm version. 3. Regarding storage format, assume each camera system as stated above records to only one possible format and bit depth. If each camera system was 10-20% more expensive, but offered 4-5 different real time recording formats at several bit depths (Tiff, OpenEXR, JPEG2000, AVI, etc), would you be more or less likely to buy? What formats are most preferable to you? Here I doubt I can be of any help, I don't understand those formats very well, but my opinion is that for a producer, format is not a matter at all, even if I have one format I would setup my system to work with that format, I would create my workflow and then go on with it. Only thing that concerns me is the look and quality of the material. 4. If the above cameras were demonstrated in laboratory test environments to have dynamic range comparable to popular 35mm and 16mm film stocks, how would that affect your perception of the products and your willingness to purchase? Of course it would!!!! and if you have the camera contact me, I am willing to buy :*) (not joking) |
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#9 | |||
Space Hipster
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,508
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[/quote] 4. If the above cameras were demonstrated in laboratory test environments to have dynamic range comparable to popular 35mm and 16mm film stocks, how would that affect your perception of the products and your willingness to purchase?[QUOTE] It's all about latitude and sensitivity for me i.e. if the 35mm had outstanding low light performance and I can think about shooting with tiny crews and small lighting rigs, then I might even consider it, though $50k for a camera is pretty expensive - I still see that as rental territory. While you might could land one job to pay for the 16mm, unless you are in a very big market, the $50k is much harder to swing. But again - having a form factor, low-light and latitude performance (i don't mind a little film-like noise/grain) so that you take a boom op, one grip and chinese lantern or reflector and go shoot - that would be great. And that's the reason I have NOT purchase and of the HDV cams or HVX200. By the time you had the extra light needed of good CCD performance, haul around the extra crew to capture the data (HVX, H1), deal with the hoops in post work-flow, your $5k - $10k camera is suddenly costing you $20k and you are thinking wistfully about 16mm. I think there is still a hole in the camera market to be filled. 16mm motion picture cameras (and small 35mm one) combined with fast film stocks with wide latitude and dynamic range revolutionized filmmaking. Hope RED or this Colorspace Inc. stuff will fill this niche. |
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#10 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 143
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The market is already saturated with 2/3" (apx. S16) cameras in the $20K range and filmmakers have not been buying them. TV stations have. Rental companies have. But, not filmmakers. The budgets of indie filmmakers are not suddenly going to increase because the quality of cameras went up a notch.
And, to reach the true potential customers (TV stations, Rental Companies) would require marketing and distribution well beyond the scope of any small company. Also, it would be a hard sell to Sony die-hards (in other words, the broadcast industry). Anyways, GOOD LUCK! Cheers. |
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#11 | |
Major Player
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 230
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#12 | |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 143
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In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of camera sales (in that price range) go to large companies who do every kind of work except narrative production (live multicam sporting events, reality TV series, etc.) This type of camera is only relevant for a very small segment of the market, who, incidentally, are not prepared to spend that much on a camera. In_My_Opinion. |
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#13 | |
New Boot
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 15
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And trust me, in a years i will have enough money, from renting that "kit", to buy the 35mm version. The main goal of that company, except from performance, its to have a great customers service. |
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#14 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 143
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Got to realize every location scout and editor and grip and pa in the industry has some sort of DV camera. This camera, however, is a professional tool, not a commodity. So, I don't think sales in the thousands could ever be expected.
Professional DP's would love something like this. I would love something like this. Not sure who it is being geared to, because it is priced far outside the range of hobbyists. On a more positive note, the spec's look very good. Price is reasonable for both cameras, but still in the luxury range for most indie filmmakers. Just because the Porsche 911 is a great car, doesn't mean a Honda Civic owner can afford to upgrade. |
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#15 |
Major Player
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Posts: 548
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Image Quality, Workflow and Support.
At $20k, I think I'd be weighing those factors in the 16mm version against the same measures of a Canon H1 into a HD capture system via SDI. At $50k, the 35mm would be too pricy for me to bother owning, but I'd be comparing rental rates and the above factors to the same for a CineAlta F950. The brief in the opening posts mentions some specs, but doesn't really cover these key factors yet. |
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