mini/micro35 question

[Noah Hayes]

What is the difference between a mini35 and a micro35 other than a 1000% increase in price? They both allow you to use 35mm or cine lens on a camcorder...so...what am I not seeing?

[Wayne Kinney]

The micro35 has the image upside down whereas the mini35 is the correct way up. The mini35, as i understand it, uses a smaller frame size at 18x24mm, and the micro35 uses the full 36x24mm frame. I think the mini35 is a much higher quality peice of kit.

Wayne.

[Noah Hayes]

If the main difference is the upside down image...why would anyone spend that much money for a mini over a micro? Does the frame size make any difference since its not recording to film? both will still let you record the full digital image

[Wayne Kinney]

Noah,
As far as im concerned, the more you crop the full 36x24mm frame, the less 'benefit' you get from the adapter. If you keep on cropping more and more, you will get to a point where the DOF will be the same as without the adapter. So my point being 36x24mm is better then 24x18mm. Its probably down to the fact that the mini35 was designed for use with cine lenses and the micro35 for SLR's.

[Ben Winter]

And isn't the micro35 a plastic focusing screen?

[Wayne Kinney]

Ben,
Yes, i believe the micro35 uses a plastic (acrylic?) spinning disk.

[Cody Dulock]

the frame size you focus on has nothing to do with depth of field. thats what we call "field of view." lets say you want to use a 35mm still camera lens on an adapter... a still camera lens generally is a 36x24 frame opposed to 24x18mm frame. thus, zooming in and framing on a 24x18mm frame decreases the FOV (field of view). so if you are using a 50mm still camera lens and focusing on a 24x18mm frame instead of a 36x24mm screen then it would equate more to the framing of a 70mm or so (dont quote me on that part). does this all make sense?

quick note on depth of field: DOF is characterized by what length lens you use and what aperture/shutter speed settings are used.

[Kurt August]

About that quick note: Are you sure? Only yesterday Wayne pointed to this site:

"The DOF doesn't depend on the focal-length (opposite what many people think). It depends only on F-stop (aperture) and that stays the same. However, thanks to the perspective, longer distance from object also virtually shortens the DOF."

http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/dof/index.htm

Also I can hardly understand how shutterspeed would influence this.

Perhaps, we should read less internet and more books.

And because it is late and this is going in the direction of lenses, something about Ultraprimes for the rest of us at http://www.zeissikon.com/lenses.htm and their new rangefinder camera coming out.

No, not serious. With the quality of our current adapters, it would be posting a letter with a spaceship.

[Jun Tang]

Originally Posted by Kurt August

About that quick note: Are you sure? Only yesterday Wayne pointed to this site:

"The DOF doesn't depend on the focal-length (opposite what many people think). It depends only on F-stop (aperture) and that stays the same. However, thanks to the perspective, longer distance from object also virtually shortens the DOF."

I'm not sure, but I think he means the focal-length of the lens. So a 15mm Nikon would have a wider depth of field than perse an 85mm.

The apeture does play a role in DOF. You get a wider DOF with a f-4.8 than if you were to shoot wide open at f-1.4.

Regarding the frame size...the larger the frame size, the shallower your depth of field. The smaller the frame size, the wider the DOF. That is in regards to the recording surface....ie the CCD.


Regarding Frame size...

Originally Posted by Cody Dulock

the frame size you focus on has nothing to do with depth of field.

Hey Cody, I'm not sure if I agree with you. Or maybe you're right and I'm just misunderstanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I thought the reason the video cameras have such a wide DOF is because of the small CCD. And a larger CCD means a shorter DOF in comparison. So, in respect, since a 35mm still lens project a larger image than a cine-lens...wouldn't it produce a more shallower DOF? Or is it just the recording surface?

[Cody Dulock]

Originally Posted by Jun Tang

I'm not sure, but I think he means the focal-length of the lens. So a 15mm Nikon would have a wider depth of field than perse an 85mm.

The apeture does play a role in DOF. You get a wider DOF with a f-4.8 than if you were to shoot wide open at f-1.4.

Regarding the frame size...the larger the frame size, the shallower your depth of field. The smaller the frame size, the wider the DOF. That is in regards to the recording surface....ie the CCD.


Regarding Frame size...


Hey Cody, I'm not sure if I agree with you. Or maybe you're right and I'm just misunderstanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I thought the reason the video cameras have such a wide DOF is because of the small CCD. And a larger CCD means a shorter DOF in comparison. So, in respect, since a 35mm still lens project a larger image than a cine-lens...wouldn't it produce a more shallower DOF? Or is it just the recording surface?

this is a good discussion. in photography, once you adjust your aperture, you have to compensate with your shutterspeed unless you just add more light. now with video cameras, i can see how that can be different since everyone shoots with the slowest shutter speed usually when using a 35mm adapter.

and yes i meant the focul length of the lens. for example, the longer the lens (200mm) the shallower DOF (or atleast it seems).

frame size/image plane and CCD's: an image is "projected" onto the GG in the 35mm adapter. you capture that image with your camcorder. so, since smaller CCD's (not image plane/frame size) dont capture enough information (not alot of light strikes them comparing a 1/4" to a 2/3") the DOF is greater (more in focus). now to capture the image off the GG you zoom in to the appropriate setting, and focus just on that image plane/surface with your camcorder. no other focusing happens with your camcorder. thus, any focusing taking place is all within the 35mm adapter via the 35mm lens. so if you think about it, you are actually recording a moving projected picture... just like when you try and record the T.V. with your video camera... you cant change whats happening on the other side of the TV as far as DOF goes no matter how large the TV is... the DOF stays the same. you can change frame size all day long and the DOF will stay just how that lens is set for. try it some time. zoom in and focus on the GG, then focus on something with the 35mm lens... then zoom out to a bigger frame and adjust your back focus and the DOF should still be the same, but your field of view will be bigger.

if i am misleading, let me know, because it sucks telling people the wrong information.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Kurt August

Perhaps, we should read less internet and more books.

Bingo! I've been waiting for someone to say that. This is my favorite quote of the week.

[Noah Hayes]

Cool, well I think i get the difference now, thanks alot, has anyone here use a micro or mini 35 with a FX1/Z1U and have any video online I could see to see how good it looks

[Wayne Kinney]

Originally Posted by Cody Dulock

the frame size you focus on has nothing to do with depth of field. thats what we call "field of view."

What i mean is, before these adapters came about, we were all trying to achieve a shallow DOF by moving the camera back and zooming in. Now, with the adapter in place, the more you zoom in and crop the 36x24mm frame, you ofcourse loose FOV as you point out, but you also get closer to what the camera can produce WITHOUT an adapter in terms of DOF anyway. So the more you crop, the more you loose the benefit of the adapter.

[Cody Dulock]

Originally Posted by Wayne Kinney

What i mean is, before these adapters came about, we were all trying to achieve a shallow DOF by moving the camera back and zooming in. Now, with the adapter in place, the more you zoom in and crop the 36x24mm frame, you ofcourse loose FOV as you point out, but you also get closer to what the camera can produce WITHOUT an adapter in terms of DOF anyway. So the more you crop, the more you loose the benefit of the adapter.

yah, you lose the field of view of your lens that you should really be getting. test putting your lens on a still camera and looking at the frame through the view finder, then put it on your 35mm adapter and see if its the same FOV.