optical image flipper

R.P. Cuenco · November 16th, 2005, 07:30 PM

im not exactly done with the rest of my adapter just yet, but i am done with my optical image flipper/rotater/erector.
i figured you guys could take a look at it and tell me what you think.

http://wannabemini35.blogspot.com

Jonathan Houser · November 16th, 2005, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.P. Cuenco

im not exactly done with the rest of my adapter just yet, but i am done with my optical image flipper/rotater/erector.
i figured you guys could take a look at it and tell me what you think.

http://wannabemini35.blogspot.com

Hey, that's great! Can I contract you to build me some of those for the G35? :)

Michael Maier · November 16th, 2005, 08:37 PM

Interesting, but how would you mount it with the adapter and camera. It seems the path is crossed.

R.P. Cuenco · November 17th, 2005, 12:05 AM

michael

the mirror system would be placed in line with the camera and adapter. if you look back on my site, i have the system looking at a 36x24mm frame. the green looking box would be where the adapter is, and the opposite side (in line with the mirrors and box) will be where the camera is place. ill try to post another picture illustrating this.

jonathan

possibly. i'll need to refine how the mirrors are mounted before i consider making it sellable. how many units are we talking about?

Quyen Le · November 17th, 2005, 01:56 AM

This is a very good design indeed. To my calculation, there will be 2 mirrors at least 24x52mm and 2 at 36x34, I am talking about minimum here. The minimum path from lens to GG is 120mm. If you can get all the mirrors cut to size and if the FS mirrors don't lose much light, this is a doable design. I hope there will be only 1 stop of light loss in this setup. Thanks for bringing up this idea.

Quyen

Michael Maier · November 17th, 2005, 06:04 AM

I understand now R.P. Cuenco. Thanks for the explanation.
I think as long as the mirrors are big enough, they don’t have to be exactly cut to 24x52mm and 36x34mm. A front surface mirror is just a normal mirror, the kind you have in your bathroom or something, right?
Why would it lose any light when there’s no prism and the path is so short? The prism is what eats the light. If it loses light as well, I don't see what would be the advantage of a big set up like that over just using the guts of a normal still picture camera to flip the image, like the guy from the Wave35 did.

R.P. Cuenco · November 17th, 2005, 09:48 AM

front surface mirrors arent anything like bathroom mirrors. the reflective surface is on the front of the glass. whereas, bathroom mirrors, and pretty much every other mirror, has the reflective surface behind the glass.

advantage? no ghosting and less light loss in a front surface mirror.
since the reflective surface is behind the glass in msot other mirrors, the glass can also act as a reflective surface, causing ghosting and glare.

disadvantage? they can get scratched up REALLY easily. but that shouldnt matter once they're in a case.

if front surface mirrors transmit >97% of light, then four mirrors would transmit >88% of light. not even a stop. not even a half stop. more like a quarter stop. this gives me more reason to believe the real mini35 uses this system as opposed to a prism system. less light loss and a hell of alot cheaper! more money for them! but, i gotta hand it to them, its still a great machine.

oh, and i just took a look at the wave35...MAN THATS HUGE!
yea, its not going to be that massive once its done.
thats just crazy.

R.P. Cuenco · November 17th, 2005, 10:08 AM

just posted more concept pictures, if anyone still doesnt get how the system fits on an adapter

Dan Diaconu · November 17th, 2005, 10:47 AM

Just for the record and not trying to taking anything away from you R.P. but I remember this method being used, tested and presented on this forum by Brett Erskine and Bob Hart a while ago (and maybe others before them). Anyway, thanks for sharing and get going, make it happen.

Quyen Le · November 17th, 2005, 12:12 PM

Hydrogen-alpha (Ha) 656 76.7%
Hydrogen-beta (Hb) 486 76.8%
Oxygen III 496 77.6%
Oxygen III 501 77.9%
Helium II 469 75%
Helium I 588 79.2%
Nitrogen II 655 76.7%
Nitrogen II 658 76.6%
Sulfur II 673 75.7%

Do you have a source for >97% light transmission FS mirror?

Quyen

Quyen Le · November 17th, 2005, 12:18 PM

Found a place that claim 97% light transmission FS mirror
http://www.sycamore-glass.com/reflectivemirror.html

Quyen

Michael Maier · November 17th, 2005, 12:30 PM

R.P. Cuenco, thanks for the explanation. I wonder if there's any resolution lost with the mirrors. I'm not sure the Mini35 uses this system. It doesn't seem to have enough space for such a huge system plus motor etc inside their small body. I think they use something more similar to a normal still camera, with prisms etc.

R.P. Cuenco · November 17th, 2005, 01:13 PM

Michael
The reason i suspect the P+S Technik Mini35 uses a mirror system such as this is that extra shape behind the lens mount. in both series (200 & 400), that shape is boxy and slightly off center from the mount. also, the mini35 translates a 24x18(16?)mm 35mm full frame. thats 35mm motion picture format. not still picture format. so, even the mirror system would be half the size of mine. also, on the 400 series, the motor appears to be parallel to the lens mount. still amazing how they made it all work.

Quyen
for most front surface mirrors ive seen (thorlabs.com, fsmirrors.com, edmundsoptics.com, and the site you listed) advertise a visible light reflection of >97%. How you can test that? I'm not quite sure, but a side by side comparison with say, a bathroom mirror, shows that the front surface mirror is way more powerful.

November 16th, 2005, 07:30 PM	#1
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	optical image flipper - wannabe mini35 im not exactly done with the rest of my adapter just yet, but i am done with my optical image flipper/rotater/erector. i figured you guys could take a look at it and tell me what you think. http://wannabemini35.blogspot.com

November 17th, 2005, 01:56 AM	#5
Quyen Le Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 356	This is a very good design indeed. To my calculation, there will be 2 mirrors at least 24x52mm and 2 at 36x34, I am talking about minimum here. The minimum path from lens to GG is 120mm. If you can get all the mirrors cut to size and if the FS mirrors don't lose much light, this is a doable design. I hope there will be only 1 stop of light loss in this setup. Thanks for bringing up this idea. Quyen __________________ Affordable Adapter http://www.adapterplace.com

November 17th, 2005, 06:04 AM	#6
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	I understand now R.P. Cuenco. Thanks for the explanation. I think as long as the mirrors are big enough, they don’t have to be exactly cut to 24x52mm and 36x34mm. A front surface mirror is just a normal mirror, the kind you have in your bathroom or something, right? Why would it lose any light when there’s no prism and the path is so short? The prism is what eats the light. If it loses light as well, I don't see what would be the advantage of a big set up like that over just using the guts of a normal still picture camera to flip the image, like the guy from the Wave35 did. Last edited by Michael Maier; November 17th, 2005 at 07:46 AM.

November 17th, 2005, 12:12 PM	#10
Quyen Le Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 356	Hydrogen-alpha (Ha) 656 76.7% Hydrogen-beta (Hb) 486 76.8% Oxygen III 496 77.6% Oxygen III 501 77.9% Helium II 469 75% Helium I 588 79.2% Nitrogen II 655 76.7% Nitrogen II 658 76.6% Sulfur II 673 75.7% Do you have a source for >97% light transmission FS mirror? Quyen __________________ Affordable Adapter http://www.adapterplace.com

November 17th, 2005, 12:18 PM	#11
Quyen Le Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 356	Found a place that claim 97% light transmission FS mirror http://www.sycamore-glass.com/reflectivemirror.html Quyen __________________ Affordable Adapter http://www.adapterplace.com

November 16th, 2005, 08:37 PM	#3
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Interesting, but how would you mount it with the adapter and camera. It seems the path is crossed.

November 17th, 2005, 12:05 AM	#4
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	michael the mirror system would be placed in line with the camera and adapter. if you look back on my site, i have the system looking at a 36x24mm frame. the green looking box would be where the adapter is, and the opposite side (in line with the mirrors and box) will be where the camera is place. ill try to post another picture illustrating this. jonathan possibly. i'll need to refine how the mirrors are mounted before i consider making it sellable. how many units are we talking about?

November 17th, 2005, 09:48 AM	#7
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	front surface mirrors arent anything like bathroom mirrors. the reflective surface is on the front of the glass. whereas, bathroom mirrors, and pretty much every other mirror, has the reflective surface behind the glass. advantage? no ghosting and less light loss in a front surface mirror. since the reflective surface is behind the glass in msot other mirrors, the glass can also act as a reflective surface, causing ghosting and glare. disadvantage? they can get scratched up REALLY easily. but that shouldnt matter once they're in a case. if front surface mirrors transmit >97% of light, then four mirrors would transmit >88% of light. not even a stop. not even a half stop. more like a quarter stop. this gives me more reason to believe the real mini35 uses this system as opposed to a prism system. less light loss and a hell of alot cheaper! more money for them! but, i gotta hand it to them, its still a great machine. oh, and i just took a look at the wave35...MAN THATS HUGE! yea, its not going to be that massive once its done. thats just crazy.

November 17th, 2005, 10:08 AM	#8
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	just posted more concept pictures, if anyone still doesnt get how the system fits on an adapter

November 17th, 2005, 10:47 AM	#9
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Just for the record and not trying to taking anything away from you R.P. but I remember this method being used, tested and presented on this forum by Brett Erskine and Bob Hart a while ago (and maybe others before them). Anyway, thanks for sharing and get going, make it happen.

November 17th, 2005, 12:30 PM	#12
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	R.P. Cuenco, thanks for the explanation. I wonder if there's any resolution lost with the mirrors. I'm not sure the Mini35 uses this system. It doesn't seem to have enough space for such a huge system plus motor etc inside their small body. I think they use something more similar to a normal still camera, with prisms etc.

November 17th, 2005, 01:13 PM	#13
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	Michael The reason i suspect the P+S Technik Mini35 uses a mirror system such as this is that extra shape behind the lens mount. in both series (200 & 400), that shape is boxy and slightly off center from the mount. also, the mini35 translates a 24x18(16?)mm 35mm full frame. thats 35mm motion picture format. not still picture format. so, even the mirror system would be half the size of mine. also, on the 400 series, the motor appears to be parallel to the lens mount. still amazing how they made it all work. Quyen for most front surface mirrors ive seen (thorlabs.com, fsmirrors.com, edmundsoptics.com, and the site you listed) advertise a visible light reflection of >97%. How you can test that? I'm not quite sure, but a side by side comparison with say, a bathroom mirror, shows that the front surface mirror is way more powerful.