The size matters, doesn't it ? at DVinfo.net

Pekka Uotila · September 24th, 2005, 03:58 AM

Hi everyone here on this very exciting site,
I have no experience of any of these adapters yet, all my opinions are based on what I have read here and there.
It seems to me that the size really does matter when trying to hide the groundglass structure, getting better contrast, sharpness and other important features. No matter if gg is spinning, scrumbling, vibrating or whatever...
I am wondering if anyone is developing system for bigger format. I believe it would give many benefits, maybe difficulties aswell.
You know, Mamiya has very nice manual lenses for the negative size 56 x 41,5mm. Normally their biggest aperture is T: 2,8. They are very solid, well made, the distance scales are big. They do breath a bit, when refocused, but so does the lenses that are used with Arri 765 (The model for 65 mm film).
The quality of these Mamiya lenses has been tested by thousands of photographers during the last decades. Those lenses are quite easy to find second hand in a reasonable price (if there is such one), and russians are making cheaper lenses for this mount too.
There are macrotubes from which one could get the mount for these lenses,. ( Forexample I have two of them ) I just do not know the right distance from the GG yet.
Personally I am not that type who can build adapter like this, but I want to become a user of this kind of adapter. I have a set of these lenses.
So, if any one has plans, please let us know.
So far I do not own any DV camera (normally I rent them) but I am planning to get Canon XL H1, specially then if it has the possibility to flip the image in the viewfinder. It seems to me that it has also some other very nice features no matter to what format I would be saving the shots.
(To make an preorder of this camera I would need more knowledge about it's real specs, and how you guys there on the other sites evaluate them.
It's been a pleasure to realise ((there at Canon XL H1site)) that other people have big emotions to cameras aswell).
The best way to use it with this "giant format" would be (of course) with relaylense instead of it's own zoom. I believe it would be a nice camera for handheld shooting, even with this configuration.
Anyway, my point here is not in the camera, it is in the bigger format !

Wayne Kinney · September 24th, 2005, 04:07 AM

There are many benefits that i see from using that type of lens over a standard 35mm. Firstly, the lens projects a bigger image, 56 x 41,5mm you say? This may eliminate the need for a macro lens, as the cam maybe able to focus on this bigger frame without one. Also, any size grain on the ground glass will be less apparent at this bigger frame size compared to 36x24.

Also, I think im right in saying these bigger format lenses produce even shallower DOF then 35mm? bigger 'target size', shallower DOF i beleive?

It depends what you want out of an adapter. I think most want 35mm in order to mimic the 35mm format your used to when you go to the cinema, for example. The bigger lenses seems to have some nice benefits, though.

Thanks,
Wayne.

Pekka Uotila · September 24th, 2005, 04:22 AM

Thanks Wayne for your thoughts,
I am following very keenly how your adapter is developing...
I think there is one other thing than just DOF that matters when trying to create quality images. That is perspective. Longer focal lenghts just have nicer and more "natural" perspective. But it is almost impossible in normal situations to use longer focal lenghts straight with any video format.
I believe these adapters will be everydaylife for videomakers in the coming years.

Wayne Kinney · September 24th, 2005, 04:39 AM

Yes your correct. These adapters also give the same FOV (perspective) as 35mm, or the larger format. As you say, its a more natural and pleasing image.

Wayne.

Pekka Uotila · September 24th, 2005, 06:24 AM

Hello Wayne
Have you already checked if it is possible to capture this "bigpicture" to your groundglass ?

Wayne Kinney · September 24th, 2005, 06:37 AM

No,
I dont own one of these lenses, but from what i have read, your idea should work. I have seen a few people on here using medium format lenses.

Wayne.

Pekka Uotila · September 24th, 2005, 07:02 AM

I just meant that is the gg that you are using now big enough ?

Wayne Kinney · September 24th, 2005, 07:12 AM

No,
The ground glass in the SG35 is designed around the 36x24mm frame.

Thanks,
Wayne.

Pekka Uotila · September 24th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Thank you Wayne,
Maybe you could open the "gate" wider to make a Super 65 version of it.
I know, very likely you should have to make bigger gg and that would lead to other new things.
I see that you are very busy with your standard version right now,
but when your factory is running nicely and you are looking for new challenges... here it is.
I wonder is it the same situation with Quyen and other designer/engineers aswell?

Wayne Kinney · September 24th, 2005, 01:04 PM

Pekka,
Maybe something for the future, who knows. I seen people using medium format lenses on an adapter, as I say, but mostly just 35. Maybe its an overlooked potential?

Bill Porter · September 24th, 2005, 08:01 PM

The increased image size of larger formats is a bonus. However, as Pekka pointed out, pretty much the largest aperture than F2.8. Also, it is hard (impossible? it may not exist) to find an F2.8 zoom that has a big range of focal lengths.

Pekka Uotila · September 25th, 2005, 10:12 AM

Hello Bill, Wayne and others
It is true, that there is no reasonable zoom available for cine use.
I have only Mamiya 645's fixed focal length lenses and personally I would have been happy to use just them. My idea is/was to work with lenses like 24mm 45mm 80 mm 110 mm 150 mm.
I think the adapter with this image size would be on it's best when making a fiction.
Hmm.
It can be difficult to reach sufficient light level even with lights if cameras sensitivity with 0db gain is somewhere around 100-200 ASA (sorry about this ancient style expression) and the adapter takes 1-2 stops and the biggest aperture is T: 2.8
I know this has been calculated in many heads before, in mine it goes on like this ...maybe I could use 6 db or even 12db, and if I set shutter speed at 1/25 sec(PAL), nobody notices it, (who cares)...
No, no, and no, how did I get into this situation?
I see it now, the only solution in production reality where I work is that I need atleast T: 2, sometimes even T: 1.4 to be able to survive. No matter what else I would like to have .

If somebody is interested in what kind of focal lenghts there should be used with this "giant format" you can start to dream here:
http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf
Go to: Focal lenght comparison

I did also found the Mamiya 645's distance from front flange to gg (to filmpressure plate), it is 63.30 mm.
This could be something positive, maybe it helps with the internal reflecting problems, and there is more room to build forexample a filter holder for 3" glassfilters between the adapter and the lense.
It would be useful in all these adapters, when you get rid of cameras original lense. Maybe the better place is between the camera and the adapter.

The info about distance from flange to pressureplate I founded here:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mounts.htm
I am sure some of you have seen it already.
Similar info is there for very many different lense mounts.
Arriflex bayonet is mentioned there too (flange 52 mm) and it is the same with nowadays PL mount.
So if the most typical "coming soon" adapter today is for Nikon lenses (flange 46.5mm) it will be easy to modify atleast to PL mount.
That is the other direction where I can go with the other lenses I already have, but it seems that with smaller gg size there are still some problems that one can solve only by buying the most pro of these adapters.
Simply, right now I am dreaming too big or too small at this price category that I can afford.
Thanks Wayne and Bill and everybody else for sharing these "lonely hours" that led into the point where from it started.
Well, atleast it was cheaper this way than going to my cellar and starting to build my own "Giant 65". ( As a name it looks nice, anybody interested in to "buy" a nice name for ... !!!)

Bill Porter · September 25th, 2005, 10:29 AM

I definitely agree a medium-format-and-larger would be great for fiction. One thing I have never heard anyone discuss is the terrific opportunities a view camera style adapter would offer. I have been discussing this with a friend and when I get some more time I would like to get an assortment of medium-format lenses and build a bellows adapter so that I can utilize the Scheimpflug principle.

Pekka Uotila · September 26th, 2005, 12:43 AM

Thank you Bill for giving to me a sleepless night.
Your idea is something that has not come in to mind. Medium format (how boring expression) lenses would keep the picture nicely full in 24x36 mm size

At night I started to see this machine working. During the take the right hand's joystick could tilt and pan the lense. With left hand joystick smallcamera and the "filmplane" could be tilted and panned. Third joystick could move the camera up and down and make the dutch head movement. And if all this were combined to slow tracking movement... the result would be something very three dimensional, something you can feel in the stomach.

Seems to me like a tool for commercials and very likely the results would be something that really cannot get done in the post.
Is this something you had in your mind?
Maybe a tool/toy like this already exists.
Very interesting person this Mr. Scheimpflug.
I think you should start a new thread to get the right people interested in about this subject.

Bill Porter · September 26th, 2005, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pekka Uotila

Medium format (how boring expression) lenses would keep the picture nicely full in 24x36 mm size

Or quite a bit bigger than 24x36! (we should say, 36x24 to be more consistent)
Try 60x45, hence the Mamiya 645; or 60x60, and many sizes around this approximate range. With dimensions like that, the grain of the ground glass or whate have you, would be just about half the size it was with 35mm.

As far as using servos to control the angle of the film plane in real time, I had not even thought of that. If you look at the design of a view camera it would really be rather simple to build something like you describe. Brilliant idea and you are right, it would make some wonderful images in a way never before seen.

September 24th, 2005, 03:58 AM	#1
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	The size matters, doesn't it, why not 56 x 41,5 mm? Hi everyone here on this very exciting site, I have no experience of any of these adapters yet, all my opinions are based on what I have read here and there. It seems to me that the size really does matter when trying to hide the groundglass structure, getting better contrast, sharpness and other important features. No matter if gg is spinning, scrumbling, vibrating or whatever... I am wondering if anyone is developing system for bigger format. I believe it would give many benefits, maybe difficulties aswell. You know, Mamiya has very nice manual lenses for the negative size 56 x 41,5mm. Normally their biggest aperture is T: 2,8. They are very solid, well made, the distance scales are big. They do breath a bit, when refocused, but so does the lenses that are used with Arri 765 (The model for 65 mm film). The quality of these Mamiya lenses has been tested by thousands of photographers during the last decades. Those lenses are quite easy to find second hand in a reasonable price (if there is such one), and russians are making cheaper lenses for this mount too. There are macrotubes from which one could get the mount for these lenses,. ( Forexample I have two of them ) I just do not know the right distance from the GG yet. Personally I am not that type who can build adapter like this, but I want to become a user of this kind of adapter. I have a set of these lenses. So, if any one has plans, please let us know. So far I do not own any DV camera (normally I rent them) but I am planning to get Canon XL H1, specially then if it has the possibility to flip the image in the viewfinder. It seems to me that it has also some other very nice features no matter to what format I would be saving the shots. (To make an preorder of this camera I would need more knowledge about it's real specs, and how you guys there on the other sites evaluate them. It's been a pleasure to realise ((there at Canon XL H1site)) that other people have big emotions to cameras aswell). The best way to use it with this "giant format" would be (of course) with relaylense instead of it's own zoom. I believe it would be a nice camera for handheld shooting, even with this configuration. Anyway, my point here is not in the camera, it is in the bigger format ! __________________ Pekka Last edited by Pekka Uotila; September 25th, 2005 at 01:35 AM.

September 24th, 2005, 04:22 AM	#3
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Thanks Wayne for your thoughts, I am following very keenly how your adapter is developing... I think there is one other thing than just DOF that matters when trying to create quality images. That is perspective. Longer focal lenghts just have nicer and more "natural" perspective. But it is almost impossible in normal situations to use longer focal lenghts straight with any video format. I believe these adapters will be everydaylife for videomakers in the coming years. __________________ Pekka

September 24th, 2005, 06:24 AM	#5
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Hello Wayne Have you already checked if it is possible to capture this "bigpicture" to your groundglass ? __________________ Pekka

September 24th, 2005, 07:02 AM	#7
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	I just meant that is the gg that you are using now big enough ? __________________ Pekka

September 24th, 2005, 12:54 PM	#9
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Thank you Wayne, Maybe you could open the "gate" wider to make a Super 65 version of it. I know, very likely you should have to make bigger gg and that would lead to other new things. I see that you are very busy with your standard version right now, but when your factory is running nicely and you are looking for new challenges... here it is. I wonder is it the same situation with Quyen and other designer/engineers aswell? __________________ Pekka

September 24th, 2005, 04:07 AM	#2
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	There are many benefits that i see from using that type of lens over a standard 35mm. Firstly, the lens projects a bigger image, 56 x 41,5mm you say? This may eliminate the need for a macro lens, as the cam maybe able to focus on this bigger frame without one. Also, any size grain on the ground glass will be less apparent at this bigger frame size compared to 36x24. Also, I think im right in saying these bigger format lenses produce even shallower DOF then 35mm? bigger 'target size', shallower DOF i beleive? It depends what you want out of an adapter. I think most want 35mm in order to mimic the 35mm format your used to when you go to the cinema, for example. The bigger lenses seems to have some nice benefits, though. Thanks, Wayne.

September 24th, 2005, 04:39 AM	#4
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Yes your correct. These adapters also give the same FOV (perspective) as 35mm, or the larger format. As you say, its a more natural and pleasing image. Wayne.

September 24th, 2005, 06:37 AM	#6
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	No, I dont own one of these lenses, but from what i have read, your idea should work. I have seen a few people on here using medium format lenses. Wayne.

September 24th, 2005, 07:12 AM	#8
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	No, The ground glass in the SG35 is designed around the 36x24mm frame. Thanks, Wayne.

September 24th, 2005, 01:04 PM	#10
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Pekka, Maybe something for the future, who knows. I seen people using medium format lenses on an adapter, as I say, but mostly just 35. Maybe its an overlooked potential?

September 24th, 2005, 08:01 PM	#11
Bill Porter Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ventura, California, USA Posts: 751	The increased image size of larger formats is a bonus. However, as Pekka pointed out, pretty much the largest aperture than F2.8. Also, it is hard (impossible? it may not exist) to find an F2.8 zoom that has a big range of focal lengths.

September 25th, 2005, 10:12 AM	#12
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Hello Bill, Wayne and others It is true, that there is no reasonable zoom available for cine use. I have only Mamiya 645's fixed focal length lenses and personally I would have been happy to use just them. My idea is/was to work with lenses like 24mm 45mm 80 mm 110 mm 150 mm. I think the adapter with this image size would be on it's best when making a fiction. Hmm. It can be difficult to reach sufficient light level even with lights if cameras sensitivity with 0db gain is somewhere around 100-200 ASA (sorry about this ancient style expression) and the adapter takes 1-2 stops and the biggest aperture is T: 2.8 I know this has been calculated in many heads before, in mine it goes on like this ...maybe I could use 6 db or even 12db, and if I set shutter speed at 1/25 sec(PAL), nobody notices it, (who cares)... No, no, and no, how did I get into this situation? I see it now, the only solution in production reality where I work is that I need atleast T: 2, sometimes even T: 1.4 to be able to survive. No matter what else I would like to have . If somebody is interested in what kind of focal lenghts there should be used with this "giant format" you can start to dream here: http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf Go to: Focal lenght comparison I did also found the Mamiya 645's distance from front flange to gg (to filmpressure plate), it is 63.30 mm. This could be something positive, maybe it helps with the internal reflecting problems, and there is more room to build forexample a filter holder for 3" glassfilters between the adapter and the lense. It would be useful in all these adapters, when you get rid of cameras original lense. Maybe the better place is between the camera and the adapter. The info about distance from flange to pressureplate I founded here: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mounts.htm I am sure some of you have seen it already. Similar info is there for very many different lense mounts. Arriflex bayonet is mentioned there too (flange 52 mm) and it is the same with nowadays PL mount. So if the most typical "coming soon" adapter today is for Nikon lenses (flange 46.5mm) it will be easy to modify atleast to PL mount. That is the other direction where I can go with the other lenses I already have, but it seems that with smaller gg size there are still some problems that one can solve only by buying the most pro of these adapters. Simply, right now I am dreaming too big or too small at this price category that I can afford. Thanks Wayne and Bill and everybody else for sharing these "lonely hours" that led into the point where from it started. Well, atleast it was cheaper this way than going to my cellar and starting to build my own "Giant 65". ( As a name it looks nice, anybody interested in to "buy" a nice name for ... !!!) __________________ Pekka Last edited by Pekka Uotila; September 25th, 2005 at 01:26 PM.

September 25th, 2005, 10:29 AM	#13
Bill Porter Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ventura, California, USA Posts: 751	I definitely agree a medium-format-and-larger would be great for fiction. One thing I have never heard anyone discuss is the terrific opportunities a view camera style adapter would offer. I have been discussing this with a friend and when I get some more time I would like to get an assortment of medium-format lenses and build a bellows adapter so that I can utilize the Scheimpflug principle.

September 26th, 2005, 12:43 AM	#14
Pekka Uotila Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 51	Thank you Bill for giving to me a sleepless night. Your idea is something that has not come in to mind. Medium format (how boring expression) lenses would keep the picture nicely full in 24x36 mm size At night I started to see this machine working. During the take the right hand's joystick could tilt and pan the lense. With left hand joystick smallcamera and the "filmplane" could be tilted and panned. Third joystick could move the camera up and down and make the dutch head movement. And if all this were combined to slow tracking movement... the result would be something very three dimensional, something you can feel in the stomach. Seems to me like a tool for commercials and very likely the results would be something that really cannot get done in the post. Is this something you had in your mind? Maybe a tool/toy like this already exists. Very interesting person this Mr. Scheimpflug. I think you should start a new thread to get the right people interested in about this subject. __________________ Pekka