New to adapter at DVinfo.net

Jeff Tyler · August 2nd, 2005, 09:39 PM

Hey everybody I have been reading these boards for awhile and thinking of a way I can build a 35mm adapter for my panasonic pv-gs150. A decent camera for myself as I am still in highschool and don't have much cash flowing in. I know its possible to build one of these and I have my parents old 35mm cam and it has a lens and such. The lens is some old Pentax 50mm thing which is probably cheap but I'm hoping it will work. I think I have an idea of what to do and I just bought a cheap $10 +10 49mm macro on ebay. I figured if it doesn't work im not out much. So I am thinking that would I would need to do is get something to step my camera up (37mm lens) to the 49mm macro. I know I then need to get the ground glass in between the lens and that. I still have not chosen what I will be using for ground glass because it seems like a very touchy subject and somewhat confuses me with all the "grinding" and "waxing" etc. I figured I would try the "grinding"(is that just using sandpaper?) on a UV filter. And then later trying the spinning cd method. Sorry if this is a really long and annoying post but does it sound like im headed in the right direction?

Ben Winter · August 2nd, 2005, 11:15 PM

I don't think sandpaper is a good idea. If you're going to make the GG yourself, buy aluminum oxide 1500 grit and grind it. After all, it's 'ground glass', not 'sanded glass.' If you're going to purchase the ground glass, get it from a good place like optosigma. Mine was $24 from there. Check out the "35mm adapter parts list" thread. There are other good places to get ground glass from, you just have to read around.

The "waxing" you're referring to is the idea of using microcrystalline wax as a diffuser instead of ground glass. This is "touchy" because it's difficult to get a good, thin coat of wax that doesn't have any bubbles, etc. that diffuses well. I've heard some people getting serious vignetting (dark areas at the edges) from paraffin wax, then others reporting fantastic results from the same material. When that kind of discrepancy occurs with the same material, its just shakes the idea that it's a guaranteed solution to the grain problem.

At this point I personally think that 1500 grit ground glass is the best way to go. I've seen good results with it all around, it's easy to acquire, and for your needs you really won't need to rotate or shake it(although I'm positive there's some grain associated with it, and moving it would just improve it). The spinning CD method takes out a lot of light and definately reduces visual quality. Packaging material, no matter how cool, is not going to give you fantastic optical results.

You seem like you're mostly on the right track, you just need to pick and finalize a design (there's a bunch in this forum) and go with it. Good luck.

Jeff Tyler · August 3rd, 2005, 09:15 AM

Thanks Ben I appreciate your help and will use your advice.

Jeff Tyler · August 3rd, 2005, 09:24 AM

Hey I have another question if you dont mind, I'm looking through the OptoSigma catalog right now and Im at the diffusers page. I see the 1500 grit ground glass. There is 50mm that I see. Would that fit inside a 50mm uv filter that i can use for ground glass then? Because I think the design would be quite simple If I had ground glass inside a uv filter (I think its possible to take the uv part out if I need to?)

*EDIT* And I forgot to ask but if i buy the optosigma ground glass, then will there be any grinding on my part involved?

Wayne Kinney · August 3rd, 2005, 09:47 AM

Hi Jeff,
I have the optosigma glass. It doesn't fit into my 50mm UV filter, maybe a 52mm?

You can see the grain with this glass, so more grinding maybe needed, but dont see the point of buying the glass in the first place in that case. Also, I feel it does not diffuse the image enough, giving to much 'ariel image' and kills DOF and gives a hazy effect.

Hope that helps,
Wayne.

Noah Yuan-Vogel · August 3rd, 2005, 11:34 AM

I've only used optosigma ground glass (two of them, i messed up the first by using rubber spacers to hold it in place but they rubbed black rubber off onto the glass and after cleaning it heavily the glass got permanently splotchy) and they seem as well ground as you're likely to get, after all it is 1500grit and quite evenly ground. I wouldnt suggest grinding it any more (wouldnt that defeat the purpose of buying pre-ground glass?). I think it's more a matter of keeping it clean enough so dirt/dust doesnt end up on your image. Optosigma 1500grit seems perfectly fine at SD resolutions. It does create a hazy diffused look in out of focus areas which can look a bit unusual as I think wayne mentioned.

Jeff Tyler · August 3rd, 2005, 01:09 PM

Can anyone post some frame grabs of this "hazy" effect you guys are mentioning?

Noah Yuan-Vogel · August 3rd, 2005, 01:39 PM

you can see what im talking about if you watch the short I shot with my optosigma GG or if you just look at some of the stills I posted in that thread.

The thread is:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=47534

Wayne Kinney · August 3rd, 2005, 01:50 PM

Jeff,
The haze effect can be described as a 50% mix between out of focus and focused image. Imagine taking 2 pictures of the same shot, 1 in focus, one completly out of focus, then setting 1 of the shots opacity to 50% in photoshop, thats the effect that is happening here. Not as pronounced as the above, im just using that as an example to describe the effect.

Its mostly apparrent on bright objects with strong contrasting lines. I think the glass just needed to diffuse the light a little more to be perfect.

Its not too bad though, and the upside to it is you get a brighter image with less loss of light.

Regards,
Wayne.

Jeff Tyler · August 3rd, 2005, 04:55 PM

Oh ok I have seen that before and do not mind. I am willing to sacrifice sharpness for DOF. I think I'd be better of creating an image with a shallow DOF then one that has the background and foreground very sharp.
Thanks for the help.

Sincerely,
Jeff Tyler

Wayne Kinney · August 3rd, 2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

I think I'd be better of creating an image with a shallow DOF then one that has the background and foreground very sharp.

Jeff,
Just to clearify, the optosigma glass kill's the DOF effect, meaning that you would have one that has the background and foreground very sharp (well, sharper), which is not what you want. The glass kills the shallow DOF effect, which goes against the whole point of this adapter

Regards,
Wayne

Noah Yuan-Vogel · August 3rd, 2005, 05:40 PM

I'm not sure I get how you mean the optosigma GG kills shallow DOF. How does it make the background sharper? If anything, haziness seems to make the background less sharp.

Also, when shooting on DV I found the diffused out of focus backgrounds helped to lessen the harshness of blown out highlights. That can be a good thing.

Jeff Tyler · August 3rd, 2005, 06:14 PM

Ok Now im confused. What am I supposed to do if the cd thing sucks and the ground glass makes it not even work properly? Is this a massive conspiracy or something?

Ben Winter · August 3rd, 2005, 09:12 PM

I think (but am not completely positive) that what he means is that the "hazy" effect removes the sharpness of whatever is in focus. Therefore, everything looks blurred and out of focus, and you don't get the contrast of a sharp, in-focus foreground against a blurred, out-of-focus background.

Noah Yuan-Vogel · August 3rd, 2005, 10:00 PM

I suppose that makes more sense, but if that is what was meant I still disagree since I found the image from my optosigma GG to have haziness only in the out of focus areas, I did not find the effect to affect the in-focus subjects. Of course adding so much more glass always has some softening effect on an image, but that is not unique to this ground glass or even ground glass as opposed to microwax or oscillating versions.

August 2nd, 2005, 09:39 PM	#1
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	New to adapter Hey everybody I have been reading these boards for awhile and thinking of a way I can build a 35mm adapter for my panasonic pv-gs150. A decent camera for myself as I am still in highschool and don't have much cash flowing in. I know its possible to build one of these and I have my parents old 35mm cam and it has a lens and such. The lens is some old Pentax 50mm thing which is probably cheap but I'm hoping it will work. I think I have an idea of what to do and I just bought a cheap $10 +10 49mm macro on ebay. I figured if it doesn't work im not out much. So I am thinking that would I would need to do is get something to step my camera up (37mm lens) to the 49mm macro. I know I then need to get the ground glass in between the lens and that. I still have not chosen what I will be using for ground glass because it seems like a very touchy subject and somewhat confuses me with all the "grinding" and "waxing" etc. I figured I would try the "grinding"(is that just using sandpaper?) on a UV filter. And then later trying the spinning cd method. Sorry if this is a really long and annoying post but does it sound like im headed in the right direction?

August 2nd, 2005, 11:15 PM	#2
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	I don't think sandpaper is a good idea. If you're going to make the GG yourself, buy aluminum oxide 1500 grit and grind it. After all, it's 'ground glass', not 'sanded glass.' If you're going to purchase the ground glass, get it from a good place like optosigma. Mine was $24 from there. Check out the "35mm adapter parts list" thread. There are other good places to get ground glass from, you just have to read around. The "waxing" you're referring to is the idea of using microcrystalline wax as a diffuser instead of ground glass. This is "touchy" because it's difficult to get a good, thin coat of wax that doesn't have any bubbles, etc. that diffuses well. I've heard some people getting serious vignetting (dark areas at the edges) from paraffin wax, then others reporting fantastic results from the same material. When that kind of discrepancy occurs with the same material, its just shakes the idea that it's a guaranteed solution to the grain problem. At this point I personally think that 1500 grit ground glass is the best way to go. I've seen good results with it all around, it's easy to acquire, and for your needs you really won't need to rotate or shake it(although I'm positive there's some grain associated with it, and moving it would just improve it). The spinning CD method takes out a lot of light and definately reduces visual quality. Packaging material, no matter how cool, is not going to give you fantastic optical results. You seem like you're mostly on the right track, you just need to pick and finalize a design (there's a bunch in this forum) and go with it. Good luck.

August 3rd, 2005, 09:15 AM	#3
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Thanks Ben I appreciate your help and will use your advice.

August 3rd, 2005, 09:24 AM	#4
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Hey I have another question if you dont mind, I'm looking through the OptoSigma catalog right now and Im at the diffusers page. I see the 1500 grit ground glass. There is 50mm that I see. Would that fit inside a 50mm uv filter that i can use for ground glass then? Because I think the design would be quite simple If I had ground glass inside a uv filter (I think its possible to take the uv part out if I need to?) EDIT And I forgot to ask but if i buy the optosigma ground glass, then will there be any grinding on my part involved?

August 3rd, 2005, 09:47 AM	#5
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Hi Jeff, I have the optosigma glass. It doesn't fit into my 50mm UV filter, maybe a 52mm? You can see the grain with this glass, so more grinding maybe needed, but dont see the point of buying the glass in the first place in that case. Also, I feel it does not diffuse the image enough, giving to much 'ariel image' and kills DOF and gives a hazy effect. Hope that helps, Wayne.

August 3rd, 2005, 11:34 AM	#6
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	I've only used optosigma ground glass (two of them, i messed up the first by using rubber spacers to hold it in place but they rubbed black rubber off onto the glass and after cleaning it heavily the glass got permanently splotchy) and they seem as well ground as you're likely to get, after all it is 1500grit and quite evenly ground. I wouldnt suggest grinding it any more (wouldnt that defeat the purpose of buying pre-ground glass?). I think it's more a matter of keeping it clean enough so dirt/dust doesnt end up on your image. Optosigma 1500grit seems perfectly fine at SD resolutions. It does create a hazy diffused look in out of focus areas which can look a bit unusual as I think wayne mentioned.

August 3rd, 2005, 01:09 PM	#7
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Can anyone post some frame grabs of this "hazy" effect you guys are mentioning?

August 3rd, 2005, 01:39 PM	#8
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	you can see what im talking about if you watch the short I shot with my optosigma GG or if you just look at some of the stills I posted in that thread. The thread is: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=47534

August 3rd, 2005, 01:50 PM	#9
Wayne Kinney Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 938	Jeff, The haze effect can be described as a 50% mix between out of focus and focused image. Imagine taking 2 pictures of the same shot, 1 in focus, one completly out of focus, then setting 1 of the shots opacity to 50% in photoshop, thats the effect that is happening here. Not as pronounced as the above, im just using that as an example to describe the effect. Its mostly apparrent on bright objects with strong contrasting lines. I think the glass just needed to diffuse the light a little more to be perfect. Its not too bad though, and the upside to it is you get a brighter image with less loss of light. Regards, Wayne.

August 3rd, 2005, 04:55 PM	#10
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Oh ok I have seen that before and do not mind. I am willing to sacrifice sharpness for DOF. I think I'd be better of creating an image with a shallow DOF then one that has the background and foreground very sharp. Thanks for the help. Sincerely, Jeff Tyler

August 3rd, 2005, 05:40 PM	#12
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	I'm not sure I get how you mean the optosigma GG kills shallow DOF. How does it make the background sharper? If anything, haziness seems to make the background less sharp. Also, when shooting on DV I found the diffused out of focus backgrounds helped to lessen the harshness of blown out highlights. That can be a good thing.

August 3rd, 2005, 06:14 PM	#13
Jeff Tyler Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Ok Now im confused. What am I supposed to do if the cd thing sucks and the ground glass makes it not even work properly? Is this a massive conspiracy or something?

August 3rd, 2005, 09:12 PM	#14
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	I think (but am not completely positive) that what he means is that the "hazy" effect removes the sharpness of whatever is in focus. Therefore, everything looks blurred and out of focus, and you don't get the contrast of a sharp, in-focus foreground against a blurred, out-of-focus background.

August 3rd, 2005, 10:00 PM	#15
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	I suppose that makes more sense, but if that is what was meant I still disagree since I found the image from my optosigma GG to have haziness only in the out of focus areas, I did not find the effect to affect the in-focus subjects. Of course adding so much more glass always has some softening effect on an image, but that is not unique to this ground glass or even ground glass as opposed to microwax or oscillating versions.