Development Platform for DIY cameras

Wayne Morellini · October 23rd, 2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham

I'm not really into it mainly because it has been noticed that the rolling shutter artifact is apart when recording video from this camera in all modes. Any high motion horizontally skews just like back in the day with the orginal Cmos cameras people were experimenting with

I've been following the debate for a while. The rolling shutter apparently sis fast enough as to not really be a problem with normal footage (though I prefer none myself). It apparently is not a too uncommon problem on PRO CCD cameras of the past as well. But the HC1 is only an example, Z1's, JVC 100, Panasonic 200 etc also have the component (I don't know about new hard disk JVC camcorder, and the Canon XLHD).

Keith Wakeham · October 24th, 2005, 04:56 AM

For some reason I was thinking something like a real-stream setup (even though you specifically said component). A component capture would be useful. Compression is something that is way more complicated than you are lead to believe since you can't just include a lib and make a function. Talking much more complicated at the level I'm working on and external chips require almost as much screwing around. I'm just not focusing on a component recorder. I'm focusing on something else just right now, but when thats done who knows.

Wayne Morellini · October 24th, 2005, 09:45 AM

I know what you are talking about. I just thought you were already working with somebody on that, and that a component version might be possible. What ever it is, keep it going.

Thanks Keith

Keith Wakeham · October 25th, 2005, 06:20 PM

I was working on something like that but not right now. Focusing on something else but if what I'm working on succeeds then I'll definetly be going after something like that next.

Wayne Morellini · October 25th, 2005, 06:38 PM

Hmm... I would like to do something myself. I have some very good ideas, but my health doesn't permit me to do much.

Régine Weinberg · November 17th, 2005, 02:14 AM

go here please
http://www.framos.co.uk/pdf_sheets/I...le_english.pdf

Jenoptik is the famous reserach group,
now the "iron curtain" gone
back on the show

Wayne Morellini · November 17th, 2005, 11:17 AM

Looks good Ronald, what costings (and can this be plugged into any firewire port and be used by standard capture/edit software)? I have found it very hard to find a cheap mega-pixel firewire unit mostly a lot above $1000.

I've left you a message on the technical thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...241#post384241

Thanks

Wayne.

Keith Wakeham · November 17th, 2005, 02:34 PM

The ccd can't read out fast enough for, it can only be clocked at max of 18mhz (5mp variant), which is essentially 18 megapixels a second at any bit depth, which even at 720p you can't hit 24fps, almost 20 but thats it without overclocking the ccd which will likely burn it out very quickly.

Wayne Morellini · November 19th, 2005, 07:31 AM

Still that is not such a problem for me. 1280*545 (approx 2.35:1) = 16.7324, give those 16:9 digital TV purists their own black bars. Boy I must be desperate for a good RAW camera.

But, Keith, I am wondering, would the new Elpel 323 camera be good as a camera development platform? I understand it is re-programmable (even FPGA). If it is as cheap as the last camera you could get the camera and sensor, with FPGA compression engine, for around $700. That firmly beats all the other options in everything but capture software (and I don't know what will edit the compression format). A bit of FPGA'ing/reprogramming could make it record directly to a Ethernet external Hard drive case. Not to mention the possibilities of tapping the circuit for external display and control buttons.

Anyway, this camera of Ronald's, do you know the costing, and if it can be used with standard capture/edit software through firewire?

Keith Wakeham · November 19th, 2005, 07:42 AM

I think everyone is desperate for a RAW camera. Their are just so many advantages. Its just like shooting RAW Digital stills. You have all the control of the image without having to pay a colourist. Thats Why I'm still working on stuff between school and my horrible luck. Even though I don't discuss it.

In theory you can reprogram the fpga for the elphel 323 but I'm pretty sure this is a combination job. The FPGA just feeds the processor and the processor handles all the issues of ethernet so its the firmware for the processor you would likely be needing to deal with not the fpga. The FPGA handles the compresseion algorithim though so if you wanted to change that then your back to fpga-land.

If the camera is firewire than likely DCAM / IIDC spec so should be lots of capture software for it, more for mac based stuff from what i've seen.

Wayne Morellini · November 19th, 2005, 07:56 AM

He He He.., new reports are cheaper Intel IBook in January, and wide-screen version ;) This is great news, we will see then.

By the way, how far are you off of announcing something, and do you have any sensor news that you have heard. I know cheap 720p Altasens, and sensor chips with dsp, compression and USB on board (phone market) are floating around.

Keith Wakeham · November 19th, 2005, 08:30 AM

This is totally unofficial so I'll keep it as vague as possible (Yes, I am a jerk)

The sensor is chosen and we're beginning intergration of it in a few weeks. Chosen with size, colour representation and shutter operation as the most important factors.

To clarify earlier we have developed embedded hardware that allows hard drive recording without a computer. This has been the focus until it became reliable a few weeks ago.

Their will not be compression in anything I design for a whlie, so its more hard drives for more data.

Any computer connection is to get the data from the drives after it is shot - no computer for capture what so ever.

Nice and vague if I do say so myself

Wayne Morellini · November 19th, 2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham

This is totally unofficial so I'll keep it as vague as possible (Yes, I am a jerk)

Nah, I respect that. Sounds good, as long as there is buttons interface to control things and a link to a computer to send commands, should be fine.

I agree about the computer, I just had Windows XP working with around 1.9 MB of HD space free. No, I'm not a miracle system installer or anything, a couple of viruses turned up and I lost all my HD space. Now I am getting around to re-installing a 3rd part anti-virus and anti-hack tool, 56MB. I could make a Super Computer operating System with an feature set similar to Windows XP, and all the Office apps, in space like that, and completely virus/hack proof. Computers, gives me the willies now days. A CP/M guy said, we won't need more than 64K, Bill Gates, 640K is it, good grief what happened to them (the computer industry), 640MB is not enough to do what a 64K programmer could do in 10MB, and 3GB is hardly enough to do what a 6K programmer could do in 10MB. Good grief, they design like they are on a spaghetti farm, throwing cooked spaghetti against the wall to make electrical wiring circuits.

Do you know, at an stage the first IBM PC was meant to be a Z-80 CP/M machine, and that after a year or two they were going to give us a Unix machine as the standard PC with Motorola processor, but the move to Unix was stopped. Boy did we loose out.

October 24th, 2005, 04:56 AM	#107
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	For some reason I was thinking something like a real-stream setup (even though you specifically said component). A component capture would be useful. Compression is something that is way more complicated than you are lead to believe since you can't just include a lib and make a function. Talking much more complicated at the level I'm working on and external chips require almost as much screwing around. I'm just not focusing on a component recorder. I'm focusing on something else just right now, but when thats done who knows. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

October 25th, 2005, 06:20 PM	#109
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	I was working on something like that but not right now. Focusing on something else but if what I'm working on succeeds then I'll definetly be going after something like that next. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

November 17th, 2005, 02:14 AM	#111
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	something may be to read go here please http://www.framos.co.uk/pdf_sheets/I...le_english.pdf Jenoptik is the famous reserach group, now the "iron curtain" gone back on the show

November 17th, 2005, 02:34 PM	#113
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	The ccd can't read out fast enough for, it can only be clocked at max of 18mhz (5mp variant), which is essentially 18 megapixels a second at any bit depth, which even at 720p you can't hit 24fps, almost 20 but thats it without overclocking the ccd which will likely burn it out very quickly. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

November 19th, 2005, 07:42 AM	#115
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	I think everyone is desperate for a RAW camera. Their are just so many advantages. Its just like shooting RAW Digital stills. You have all the control of the image without having to pay a colourist. Thats Why I'm still working on stuff between school and my horrible luck. Even though I don't discuss it. In theory you can reprogram the fpga for the elphel 323 but I'm pretty sure this is a combination job. The FPGA just feeds the processor and the processor handles all the issues of ethernet so its the firmware for the processor you would likely be needing to deal with not the fpga. The FPGA handles the compresseion algorithim though so if you wanted to change that then your back to fpga-land. If the camera is firewire than likely DCAM / IIDC spec so should be lots of capture software for it, more for mac based stuff from what i've seen. __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm

October 24th, 2005, 09:45 AM	#108
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I know what you are talking about. I just thought you were already working with somebody on that, and that a component version might be possible. What ever it is, keep it going. Thanks Keith

October 25th, 2005, 06:38 PM	#110
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Hmm... I would like to do something myself. I have some very good ideas, but my health doesn't permit me to do much.

November 17th, 2005, 11:17 AM	#112
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Looks good Ronald, what costings (and can this be plugged into any firewire port and be used by standard capture/edit software)? I have found it very hard to find a cheap mega-pixel firewire unit mostly a lot above $1000. I've left you a message on the technical thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...241#post384241 Thanks Wayne.

November 19th, 2005, 07:31 AM	#114
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Still that is not such a problem for me. 1280*545 (approx 2.35:1) = 16.7324, give those 16:9 digital TV purists their own black bars. Boy I must be desperate for a good RAW camera. But, Keith, I am wondering, would the new Elpel 323 camera be good as a camera development platform? I understand it is re-programmable (even FPGA). If it is as cheap as the last camera you could get the camera and sensor, with FPGA compression engine, for around $700. That firmly beats all the other options in everything but capture software (and I don't know what will edit the compression format). A bit of FPGA'ing/reprogramming could make it record directly to a Ethernet external Hard drive case. Not to mention the possibilities of tapping the circuit for external display and control buttons. Anyway, this camera of Ronald's, do you know the costing, and if it can be used with standard capture/edit software through firewire?

November 19th, 2005, 07:56 AM	#116
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	He He He.., new reports are cheaper Intel IBook in January, and wide-screen version ;) This is great news, we will see then. By the way, how far are you off of announcing something, and do you have any sensor news that you have heard. I know cheap 720p Altasens, and sensor chips with dsp, compression and USB on board (phone market) are floating around.

November 19th, 2005, 08:30 AM	#117
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	This is totally unofficial so I'll keep it as vague as possible (Yes, I am a jerk) The sensor is chosen and we're beginning intergration of it in a few weeks. Chosen with size, colour representation and shutter operation as the most important factors. To clarify earlier we have developed embedded hardware that allows hard drive recording without a computer. This has been the focus until it became reliable a few weeks ago. Their will not be compression in anything I design for a whlie, so its more hard drives for more data. Any computer connection is to get the data from the drives after it is shot - no computer for capture what so ever. Nice and vague if I do say so myself __________________ www.engr.mun.ca/~wakeham/index.htm