Oscillation Idea at DVinfo.net

Aaron Shaw · January 20th, 2005, 10:26 AM

Hey guys,

Something just occured to me last night when I was half asleep (seems I'm most creative that way...). I was pondering decent ways to change some of the current static designs into oscillating adapters without having to loose the optics tube (very useful thing really).

So while pondering various ways that this could be achieved it hit me: why use a mechanical device at all? Couldn't we build some sort of magnetic oscillator? If done correctly it would require no external power source. The only question in my mind is whether a large enough vibration could be introduced from conflicting magnetic fields to effectively blur the grain at higher shutter speeds.

What do you guys think? Am I just going crazy?

Cosmin Rotaru · January 20th, 2005, 11:42 AM

Plain magnets? No external power source? No ELECTROmagnets?
plain magnets will come into equilibrium no matter how you place them, unless you plan to shake the camcorder... :)

Aaron Shaw · January 20th, 2005, 11:52 AM

Electromagnets could be used of course :)

I'm not entirely certain it would. So long as there is a confliction of magentic fields these things will keep moving. Same as those annoying little table top things that constantly move due to magnets (hard to describe..).

James Hurd · January 20th, 2005, 11:56 AM

Vibration.

Aaron Shaw · January 20th, 2005, 12:02 PM

Vibration?

As in you think there will be too much?

James Hurd · January 20th, 2005, 12:47 PM

Yes sir. moving anything that's not properly balanced will create vibration. Through my tests, having something ~1mm off would create too much vibration..

Aaron Shaw · January 20th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Yes that is an excellent point. Anyway, it's something I may play around with just to see if it's possible.

If this were to be done without electromagnets someone would have to come up with a very creative means of keeping the glass in continual motion (as we can't shift the poles).

While we're at it though, anyone else have a good idea for how to mod these static adapters (using filter rings or more preferably the optosigma optics tube) to oscillate?

Cosmin Rotaru · January 21st, 2005, 02:07 AM

Aaron, "perpetum mobile" does not exist. The "annoying little table top things that constantly move due to magnets" are pseudo "perpetum mobile" (have a battery inside). Or they just stop after a while.

Aaron Shaw · January 21st, 2005, 11:10 AM

Oh quite right. I'm certainly not a believer in perpetual motion. I just think that the motion will last long enough for my purposes. I'll let you guys know if anything works decently.

Brett Erskine · January 22nd, 2005, 07:36 PM

I'm not sure how you want to put this together but dont forget how important its is that the GG doesnt shift even a single mm towards or away from its relationship to the 35mm lens other wise you'll see the focus shift on you as well. And your camera isnt going to be perfectly still when your using it so ask yourself what bumping around will do to this issue. I would think this would be hard to make work but then again I'm not seeing exactly how you plan on making it mechanically. Like the idea though. Could be completely silent.

Aaron Shaw · January 22nd, 2005, 08:53 PM

Yeah that's one of my main worries. I think this could possibly be solved by making sure the GG was tight in optics tube. Not so tight that it can't rotate but tight enough it won't shift back and forth.

I have a bunch of different drawings I made up of layouts. Many bad, some good. Brainstorming really. I think one possible solution would be to do something like this:

http://www.weet.us/magnet.GIF

If you laid this out right the magnet on the GG would possibly get trapped between each field of the other magnets and vibrate back and forth. I have no clue if it would work though. Ideas or comments?

[NOTE: I just made this in PAINT so it's crappy looking]

EDIT: back and forth as in back and forth between the two exterior magnets giving a sea type motion to the entire glass.

Dan Diaconu · January 23rd, 2005, 11:20 AM

Back and forth would give you two end points of the grain showing two spots (ends of race) but......
could THIS be what you are after?: (nice job Obin!)

http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/noise_level.wmv

and this?

http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/planeity.wmv

and in the end make it look like this?:

http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0125_1
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0130_1
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0137

From an "idea".... to have a working model in your hands is a loooong way. The only way to see how long, is to try it.

Aaron Shaw · January 23rd, 2005, 11:31 AM

Not entirely sure what you are saying Dan. I'm probably just really tired though.

I certainly realize that an idea to fully working piece is a long process. I never intended to claim otherwise! I was just proposing an idea to the board and all the comments have been helpful.

Brett Erskine · January 23rd, 2005, 12:14 PM

Shawn-
From the picture it looks like you just a few magnets shy of how a motor works.

Dan-
Simply put it looks like your done. FOV, brightness, noise level, etc look right on the money. So when are you going to sell them? Actually I was wondering about one minor thing though. That back clear dust productive filter - isnt it too close? What I mean is having it so close to the plane of the GG seems like you have to have it perfectly clean otherwise any dust, dirt or hair will become visable although it will be very much out of focus. Have you found that to be true?

Aaron Shaw · January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 PM

Yep, quite right Brett. A motor requires that you switch back and forth between + and - on each side (to keep the middle spinning around). This would only wobble. Maybe enough maybe not. Worth an experiment though!

Dan, I'm also interested in when you will sell these. I'm also quite interested in the internal setup. Not necessarily the vibration mechanism but the optics. I'm trying to design an adapter with maximum light efficiency and lack of distortion but if yours already achieves that (need to see the setup to see if it could be improved) then I'll just buy one of yours!

January 20th, 2005, 10:26 AM	#1
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Oscillation Idea Hey guys, Something just occured to me last night when I was half asleep (seems I'm most creative that way...). I was pondering decent ways to change some of the current static designs into oscillating adapters without having to loose the optics tube (very useful thing really). So while pondering various ways that this could be achieved it hit me: why use a mechanical device at all? Couldn't we build some sort of magnetic oscillator? If done correctly it would require no external power source. The only question in my mind is whether a large enough vibration could be introduced from conflicting magnetic fields to effectively blur the grain at higher shutter speeds. What do you guys think? Am I just going crazy?

January 20th, 2005, 11:42 AM	#2
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	Plain magnets? No external power source? No ELECTROmagnets? plain magnets will come into equilibrium no matter how you place them, unless you plan to shake the camcorder... :) __________________ Cosmin Rotaru

January 21st, 2005, 02:07 AM	#8
Cosmin Rotaru Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Romania, Timisoara Posts: 453	Aaron, "perpetum mobile" does not exist. The "annoying little table top things that constantly move due to magnets" are pseudo "perpetum mobile" (have a battery inside). Or they just stop after a while. __________________ Cosmin Rotaru

January 20th, 2005, 11:52 AM	#3
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Electromagnets could be used of course :) I'm not entirely certain it would. So long as there is a confliction of magentic fields these things will keep moving. Same as those annoying little table top things that constantly move due to magnets (hard to describe..).

January 20th, 2005, 11:56 AM	#4
James Hurd Micro35 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 221	Vibration.

January 20th, 2005, 12:02 PM	#5
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Vibration? As in you think there will be too much?

January 20th, 2005, 12:47 PM	#6
James Hurd Micro35 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 221	Yes sir. moving anything that's not properly balanced will create vibration. Through my tests, having something ~1mm off would create too much vibration..

January 20th, 2005, 12:54 PM	#7
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Yes that is an excellent point. Anyway, it's something I may play around with just to see if it's possible. If this were to be done without electromagnets someone would have to come up with a very creative means of keeping the glass in continual motion (as we can't shift the poles). While we're at it though, anyone else have a good idea for how to mod these static adapters (using filter rings or more preferably the optosigma optics tube) to oscillate?

January 21st, 2005, 11:10 AM	#9
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Oh quite right. I'm certainly not a believer in perpetual motion. I just think that the motion will last long enough for my purposes. I'll let you guys know if anything works decently.

January 22nd, 2005, 07:36 PM	#10
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	I'm not sure how you want to put this together but dont forget how important its is that the GG doesnt shift even a single mm towards or away from its relationship to the 35mm lens other wise you'll see the focus shift on you as well. And your camera isnt going to be perfectly still when your using it so ask yourself what bumping around will do to this issue. I would think this would be hard to make work but then again I'm not seeing exactly how you plan on making it mechanically. Like the idea though. Could be completely silent.

January 22nd, 2005, 08:53 PM	#11
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Yeah that's one of my main worries. I think this could possibly be solved by making sure the GG was tight in optics tube. Not so tight that it can't rotate but tight enough it won't shift back and forth. I have a bunch of different drawings I made up of layouts. Many bad, some good. Brainstorming really. I think one possible solution would be to do something like this: http://www.weet.us/magnet.GIF If you laid this out right the magnet on the GG would possibly get trapped between each field of the other magnets and vibrate back and forth. I have no clue if it would work though. Ideas or comments? [NOTE: I just made this in PAINT so it's crappy looking] EDIT: back and forth as in back and forth between the two exterior magnets giving a sea type motion to the entire glass.

January 23rd, 2005, 11:20 AM	#12
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Back and forth would give you two end points of the grain showing two spots (ends of race) but...... could THIS be what you are after?: (nice job Obin!) http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/noise_level.wmv and this? http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/planeity.wmv and in the end make it look like this?: http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0125_1 http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0130_1 http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/35mm-lens-adapter-latest-vesion-on-Jan-22-2005/IMGA0137 From an "idea".... to have a working model in your hands is a loooong way. The only way to see how long, is to try it.

January 23rd, 2005, 11:31 AM	#13
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Not entirely sure what you are saying Dan. I'm probably just really tired though. I certainly realize that an idea to fully working piece is a long process. I never intended to claim otherwise! I was just proposing an idea to the board and all the comments have been helpful.

January 23rd, 2005, 12:14 PM	#14
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Shawn- From the picture it looks like you just a few magnets shy of how a motor works. Dan- Simply put it looks like your done. FOV, brightness, noise level, etc look right on the money. So when are you going to sell them? Actually I was wondering about one minor thing though. That back clear dust productive filter - isnt it too close? What I mean is having it so close to the plane of the GG seems like you have to have it perfectly clean otherwise any dust, dirt or hair will become visable although it will be very much out of focus. Have you found that to be true?

January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 PM	#15
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Yep, quite right Brett. A motor requires that you switch back and forth between + and - on each side (to keep the middle spinning around). This would only wobble. Maybe enough maybe not. Worth an experiment though! Dan, I'm also interested in when you will sell these. I'm also quite interested in the internal setup. Not necessarily the vibration mechanism but the optics. I'm trying to design an adapter with maximum light efficiency and lack of distortion but if yours already achieves that (need to see the setup to see if it could be improved) then I'll just buy one of yours!