Micro35 (original thread)

Brian Valente · April 10th, 2005, 10:31 AM

Craig, where are you coming from in all this?

<<<price went up for the manual>>
Are you seriously saying $45 including the gg is a concern?? Go price just the gg from arri.

<<<the footage on the web site was shot with "The old GG">>>

Are you saying that footage is not acceptable? Looks pretty damn good to me. Even if the new gg is the same quality (unlikely) I'd still buy it.

<<<the latest pictures are so freaking dark you would have to honestly wonder if the photographer had the lens cap on when shooting>>>

apparently you didn't bother reading Larry's comments regarding the _intent_ of the shoot and the other production considerations that required them to shoot dark. Refer back to the original samples.

<<<And as they say back home “PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING” -->>>

Sounds good - let's compare the _proof_ so far.

micro35 (even with old gg, it's damn good):

http://www.micro35.com/micro35.wmv
http://www.micro35.com/micro35tests.wmv

Please post back where we can see the G35 sample footage

Daniel Skubal · April 10th, 2005, 11:14 AM

Things are getting a little heated here.

What's being argued over is kind of stupid. "The system I support is better!" "No mine is!"

I believe both systems are going to work well, we just have to be patient for both of them to come out.
You guys have to realize that the people who are making these products (James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money, and their goal is to make affordable systems. I can excuse the lateness of the products because I am confident that both will deliver. I don't think some of us are patient enough. The best thing to do is wait.

I do agree though, that at times, things can be frusterating just waiting without updates. Hell, I've been pushing back my production for several short films and music videos so I can shoot them in micro35, but I am not about to go pointing fingers and lose faith.

Perhaps this argument should be dropped.

Shawn Murphy · April 10th, 2005, 11:31 AM

"...(James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money"

It would appear that James(micro) has money other than his own from the manuals, no? ..and Jonathan... well, I actually volunteered a couple of weeks ago to Beta test and inquired about investing in his project, but have heard not one reply from him.

My take on all this has been that there is nothing unscrupulous happening, it's just what happens when projects are managed by people not familiar with... Project Management! (though James now 'appears' to be working with some people who 'should' know better)

Jonathon Wilson · April 10th, 2005, 11:46 AM

"..and Jonathan..."

Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :)

Brian Valente · April 10th, 2005, 12:00 PM

agreed. I applaud everyone who is putting in the effort to push these forward, often in their own free time. I think personal attacks aren't appropriate, though I know we are all feeling anxious to get these into our hands.

Craig Bellaire · April 10th, 2005, 02:09 PM

GG Question... No one as far as I'm concerned has said or shown that this glass is as good as arri... From my understanding it's a sticker that has been mentioned. Basically frosted window tint, $4.00 including installation on the CD with no bubbles…And now given away with a late manual. The footage looks good I agree, even the circular patterns on the horses head... and that's not bad compression because I do compression every day... Yes it's hard to wait but also when someone mentions another item like the G35, One need’s to look at what they are representing as well... In this case is the Micro35 and all that I have mentioned… As in these post, people are delaying projects, which in-turn cost them further money while waiting on a product which shows promise, but as of now little proof…I’m glad that this is going to be a good product when it’s out. And hope it’s out before summer gets here. Other wise it’s hard to shoot in 3ft of snow…

Steev Dinkins · April 10th, 2005, 02:32 PM

The G35 is a static adapter. I don't think it can possibly provide the best image. The P+S Mini35 is well known as the King in "this" world. It's based on a moving element. The Micro35 is also based on a moving element. And the G35 is not. The best thing I can say about the G35 is that they are trying to commercialize a nice static design device. For me, however, I've already built my own. That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device. The G35 is taking the path more easily traveled, and I'm sure they'll hear about it from people who grow frustrated with the infamous "grain".

Regarding the time delays on the Micro35. It definitely makes me bad mouth and diss and shout. But ultimately, there's a whole difficult story only James knows, and the only rational thing for me to do about my $50 spent on a guide is say.. whatever. It'll be what it is when it can be.

Brian Valente · April 10th, 2005, 02:58 PM

Craig - I wasn't suggesting the gg is the quality of arri (I wish), only that the price-points for all these projects are ridiculously low compared with the "standard alternatives". I cannot speak authoritatively regarding the quality of the gg, but I have developed the impression the micro35 guide's gg is more than just a cheap CD covering with good application. I think it's true ground glass. But James would have to verify that.

<<<That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device>>>

That's what I'm waiting for as well, and why I think the micro35, when it comes, will be worth it. We should all be encouraging James and helping him.

Cheers

Shawn Murphy · April 10th, 2005, 07:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : "..and Jonathan..."

Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :) -->>>

The Jonathan I was referring to was from the G35 project:

http://www.guerilla35.com/talk/viewforum.php?f=1

or

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=23835&highlight=G35

A.D.Wyatt Norton · April 10th, 2005, 07:25 PM

I seldom post, but I will now.

Look- I ponied up for the guide, too. Would I like it and a finished kit, pre-assembled NOW for XL? Of course. I must point out, though, that I've been following the many threads related to spinning and oscillating GG/micro fresnel screens in a sort of modified modern camera obscura for awhile. Quite awhile. I haven't spent the doubtless HUGE number of hours that the people really trying to develop this have. Neither have most of the people whining about, oh, I don't know, dead cats. When the micro35 is ready, I'll be as close as I can get to the front end of the line. I need DOF like I need sunshine. But. I only know that when people don't bother to read through the myriad posts on this subject (and related ones), they take more of the time needed to actually make this work to answer the same queries repeatedly.

Give James some slack.

I also know that I have a particular project coming up this summer that I realy need one of the camera packages to have DOF. It's important enough to me (and the client) that I'll bite the bullet and rent a mini35 setup that I simply can't afford to buy, if I must. Those people raising the stress level based on their next project need to take stock of the whole situation. Christ! It's not as if there's some news about the nature of images natively produced on CCDs, is there? Film and cine lenses produce known quantities, too. Maybe a little upgrade in your lighting would give you some nicer shots, I don't know.

Selfishly, I don't want James to be stressed as he works out the particulars for the XL version sporting PL and Nikkor F mounts. I'm sure others want care on their respective types.

Rant over. Now, commmence yelling at me, and don't yell at James.

Daniel Skubal · April 10th, 2005, 07:41 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by A.D.Wyatt Norton : I seldom post, but I will now.

Look- I ponied up for the guide, too. Would I like it and a finished kit, pre-assembled NOW for XL? Of course. I must point out, though, that I've been following the many threads related to spinning and oscillating GG/micro fresnel screens in a sort of modified modern camera obscura for awhile. Quite awhile. I haven't spent the doubtless HUGE number of hours that the people really trying to develop this have. Neither have most of the people whining about, oh, I don't know, dead cats. When the micro35 is ready, I'll be as close as I can get to the front end of the line. I need DOF like I need sunshine. But. I only know that when people don't bother to read through the myriad posts on this subject (and related ones), they take more of the time needed to actually make this work to answer the same queries repeatedly.

Give James some slack.

I also know that I have a particular project coming up this summer that I realy need one of the camera packages to have DOF. It's important enough to me (and the client) that I'll bite the bullet and rent a mini35 setup that I simply can't afford to buy, if I must. Those people raising the stress level based on their next project need to take stock of the whole situation. Christ! It's not as if there's some news about the nature of images natively produced on CCDs, is there? Film and cine lenses produce known quantities, too. Maybe a little upgrade in your lighting would give you some nicer shots, I don't know.

Selfishly, I don't want James to be stressed as he works out the particulars for the XL version sporting PL and Nikkor F mounts. I'm sure others want care on their respective types.

Rant over. Now, commmence yelling at me, and don't yell at James. -->>>

Good man. That's what needed to be said.

The dead cat thing was just for humor btw :)

John Sandel · April 10th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Oh, now you tell us!

James Hurd · April 10th, 2005, 08:33 PM

Hey Everyone,
I appreciate all the comments! Both positive and negative.

Building a viable company that can reliably manufacture cinema equipment doesn't happen overnite. Unlike the engineering, testing, website posts and footage posts that can provide instant tangible results, getting a real company together that has real relationships that will allow it to perform is something that only I've been able to see at this point. This is something that consumers of your caliber should be aware of when you're looking to purchase equipment online and can't walk in to a showroom. Especially when your job depends on it. It's been unfortunate that you haven't seen the part of the process of bringing the equipment to the market, but you'll thank me for it later. Especially if you fall into some other trap and buy some other garage shop adapter. It's also unfortunate that my eagerness in wanting to get product in your hands has caused some of this inflamitory comments and critisism. And that is exactly why I decided to take the plunge and make this 'real'. This won't be a hobby anymore. You'll begin to see more people involved in the Micro35/RedrockMicro corporation, so please don't be alarmed if you hear from someone besides myself. Trying to do this (sale adapters and such) cannot be done any other way. And you, the consumer, shouldn't accept anything less. So again, your comments are so important, especially the negative ones. It's important for everyone to see what it takes, and what the people will allow to happen within this market place. I, like you, expect it.

james
www.micro35.com

Craig Bellaire · April 11th, 2005, 04:09 AM

Thanks for the response,and hard work. But ... "When are the manuals due out?" OK OK I could't help myself..

John Harvey · April 13th, 2005, 11:46 PM

How about an excerpt from the manual?

My moving (electronics driven, amplitude and frequency adjustable occilation) Borosilicate GG adapter is about done, Nikkor F mount and a Sony Z1. James could you please release some of the info I purchased a couple of months ago? Such as the elements forward of the GG. I would have emailed you directly but where?

please respond to

erospace@eti-fuelcel.com

I expect to be finished in a couple of weeks, I just don't want to repeat any discoveries that the manual covers, after all that's why I bought one, yes, along with others I know.

I'm a solidworks driving prototype designer engineer with a full machine shop of my own so the components are really sweat, P+S has nothing on my adapter!

thanks for the response

jh

see pic here www.eti-fuelcel.com/35mm fixed adapter.jpg

not for sale, personal use only. It exists and is functioning, I'll put up pic's of the real thing when I get around to it.

April 10th, 2005, 10:31 AM	#391
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	Re: Promising all kinds of stuff Craig, where are you coming from in all this? <<<price went up for the manual>> Are you seriously saying $45 including the gg is a concern?? Go price just the gg from arri. <<<the footage on the web site was shot with "The old GG">>> Are you saying that footage is not acceptable? Looks pretty damn good to me. Even if the new gg is the same quality (unlikely) I'd still buy it. <<<the latest pictures are so freaking dark you would have to honestly wonder if the photographer had the lens cap on when shooting>>> apparently you didn't bother reading Larry's comments regarding the _intent_ of the shoot and the other production considerations that required them to shoot dark. Refer back to the original samples. <<<And as they say back home “PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING” -->>> Sounds good - let's compare the _proof_ so far. micro35 (even with old gg, it's damn good): http://www.micro35.com/micro35.wmv http://www.micro35.com/micro35tests.wmv Please post back where we can see the G35 sample footage __________________ ========================== Brian Valente Redrock Microsystems

April 10th, 2005, 11:46 AM	#394
Jonathon Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 182	"..and Jonathan..." Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :) __________________ http://www.aqua-web.com

April 10th, 2005, 12:00 PM	#395
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	agreed. I applaud everyone who is putting in the effort to push these forward, often in their own free time. I think personal attacks aren't appropriate, though I know we are all feeling anxious to get these into our hands. __________________ ========================== Brian Valente Redrock Microsystems

April 10th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#396
Craig Bellaire Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 422	Brian GG Question... No one as far as I'm concerned has said or shown that this glass is as good as arri... From my understanding it's a sticker that has been mentioned. Basically frosted window tint, $4.00 including installation on the CD with no bubbles…And now given away with a late manual. The footage looks good I agree, even the circular patterns on the horses head... and that's not bad compression because I do compression every day... Yes it's hard to wait but also when someone mentions another item like the G35, One need’s to look at what they are representing as well... In this case is the Micro35 and all that I have mentioned… As in these post, people are delaying projects, which in-turn cost them further money while waiting on a product which shows promise, but as of now little proof…I’m glad that this is going to be a good product when it’s out. And hope it’s out before summer gets here. Other wise it’s hard to shoot in 3ft of snow… __________________ Craig Bellaire www.VerticalVideoSolutions.com

April 10th, 2005, 02:58 PM	#398
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	Craig - I wasn't suggesting the gg is the quality of arri (I wish), only that the price-points for all these projects are ridiculously low compared with the "standard alternatives". I cannot speak authoritatively regarding the quality of the gg, but I have developed the impression the micro35 guide's gg is more than just a cheap CD covering with good application. I think it's true ground glass. But James would have to verify that. <<<That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device>>> That's what I'm waiting for as well, and why I think the micro35, when it comes, will be worth it. We should all be encouraging James and helping him. Cheers __________________ ========================== Brian Valente Redrock Microsystems

April 10th, 2005, 11:14 AM	#392
Daniel Skubal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 71	Things are getting a little heated here. What's being argued over is kind of stupid. "The system I support is better!" "No mine is!" I believe both systems are going to work well, we just have to be patient for both of them to come out. You guys have to realize that the people who are making these products (James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money, and their goal is to make affordable systems. I can excuse the lateness of the products because I am confident that both will deliver. I don't think some of us are patient enough. The best thing to do is wait. I do agree though, that at times, things can be frusterating just waiting without updates. Hell, I've been pushing back my production for several short films and music videos so I can shoot them in micro35, but I am not about to go pointing fingers and lose faith. Perhaps this argument should be dropped.

April 10th, 2005, 11:31 AM	#393
Shawn Murphy Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle WA USA Posts: 125	"...(James and Jonathan) have set up micro-stores for US with their own money" It would appear that James(micro) has money other than his own from the manuals, no? ..and Jonathan... well, I actually volunteered a couple of weeks ago to Beta test and inquired about investing in his project, but have heard not one reply from him. My take on all this has been that there is nothing unscrupulous happening, it's just what happens when projects are managed by people not familiar with... Project Management! (though James now 'appears' to be working with some people who 'should' know better)

April 10th, 2005, 02:32 PM	#397
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	The G35 is a static adapter. I don't think it can possibly provide the best image. The P+S Mini35 is well known as the King in "this" world. It's based on a moving element. The Micro35 is also based on a moving element. And the G35 is not. The best thing I can say about the G35 is that they are trying to commercialize a nice static design device. For me, however, I've already built my own. That's why I'm waiting on more skilled people to invent an affordable "moving element" device. The G35 is taking the path more easily traveled, and I'm sure they'll hear about it from people who grow frustrated with the infamous "grain". Regarding the time delays on the Micro35. It definitely makes me bad mouth and diss and shout. But ultimately, there's a whole difficult story only James knows, and the only rational thing for me to do about my $50 spent on a guide is say.. whatever. It'll be what it is when it can be.

April 10th, 2005, 07:22 PM	#399
Shawn Murphy Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle WA USA Posts: 125	<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : "..and Jonathan..." Note -- that must be a different Jonathan -- I'm not selling jack :) -->>> The Jonathan I was referring to was from the G35 project: http://www.guerilla35.com/talk/viewforum.php?f=1 or http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=23835&highlight=G35

April 10th, 2005, 07:25 PM	#400
A.D.Wyatt Norton Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 27	Relax-take pill I seldom post, but I will now. Look- I ponied up for the guide, too. Would I like it and a finished kit, pre-assembled NOW for XL? Of course. I must point out, though, that I've been following the many threads related to spinning and oscillating GG/micro fresnel screens in a sort of modified modern camera obscura for awhile. Quite awhile. I haven't spent the doubtless HUGE number of hours that the people really trying to develop this have. Neither have most of the people whining about, oh, I don't know, dead cats. When the micro35 is ready, I'll be as close as I can get to the front end of the line. I need DOF like I need sunshine. But. I only know that when people don't bother to read through the myriad posts on this subject (and related ones), they take more of the time needed to actually make this work to answer the same queries repeatedly. Give James some slack. I also know that I have a particular project coming up this summer that I realy need one of the camera packages to have DOF. It's important enough to me (and the client) that I'll bite the bullet and rent a mini35 setup that I simply can't afford to buy, if I must. Those people raising the stress level based on their next project need to take stock of the whole situation. Christ! It's not as if there's some news about the nature of images natively produced on CCDs, is there? Film and cine lenses produce known quantities, too. Maybe a little upgrade in your lighting would give you some nicer shots, I don't know. Selfishly, I don't want James to be stressed as he works out the particulars for the XL version sporting PL and Nikkor F mounts. I'm sure others want care on their respective types. Rant over. Now, commmence yelling at me, and don't yell at James. __________________ If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

April 10th, 2005, 07:41 PM	#401
Daniel Skubal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 71	Re: Relax-take pill <<<-- Originally posted by A.D.Wyatt Norton : I seldom post, but I will now. Look- I ponied up for the guide, too. Would I like it and a finished kit, pre-assembled NOW for XL? Of course. I must point out, though, that I've been following the many threads related to spinning and oscillating GG/micro fresnel screens in a sort of modified modern camera obscura for awhile. Quite awhile. I haven't spent the doubtless HUGE number of hours that the people really trying to develop this have. Neither have most of the people whining about, oh, I don't know, dead cats. When the micro35 is ready, I'll be as close as I can get to the front end of the line. I need DOF like I need sunshine. But. I only know that when people don't bother to read through the myriad posts on this subject (and related ones), they take more of the time needed to actually make this work to answer the same queries repeatedly. Give James some slack. I also know that I have a particular project coming up this summer that I realy need one of the camera packages to have DOF. It's important enough to me (and the client) that I'll bite the bullet and rent a mini35 setup that I simply can't afford to buy, if I must. Those people raising the stress level based on their next project need to take stock of the whole situation. Christ! It's not as if there's some news about the nature of images natively produced on CCDs, is there? Film and cine lenses produce known quantities, too. Maybe a little upgrade in your lighting would give you some nicer shots, I don't know. Selfishly, I don't want James to be stressed as he works out the particulars for the XL version sporting PL and Nikkor F mounts. I'm sure others want care on their respective types. Rant over. Now, commmence yelling at me, and don't yell at James. -->>> Good man. That's what needed to be said. The dead cat thing was just for humor btw :)

April 10th, 2005, 08:09 PM	#402
John Sandel Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: stately Eldora Road Posts: 386	Oh, now you tell us!

April 10th, 2005, 08:33 PM	#403
James Hurd Micro35 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 221	Hey Everyone, I appreciate all the comments! Both positive and negative. Building a viable company that can reliably manufacture cinema equipment doesn't happen overnite. Unlike the engineering, testing, website posts and footage posts that can provide instant tangible results, getting a real company together that has real relationships that will allow it to perform is something that only I've been able to see at this point. This is something that consumers of your caliber should be aware of when you're looking to purchase equipment online and can't walk in to a showroom. Especially when your job depends on it. It's been unfortunate that you haven't seen the part of the process of bringing the equipment to the market, but you'll thank me for it later. Especially if you fall into some other trap and buy some other garage shop adapter. It's also unfortunate that my eagerness in wanting to get product in your hands has caused some of this inflamitory comments and critisism. And that is exactly why I decided to take the plunge and make this 'real'. This won't be a hobby anymore. You'll begin to see more people involved in the Micro35/RedrockMicro corporation, so please don't be alarmed if you hear from someone besides myself. Trying to do this (sale adapters and such) cannot be done any other way. And you, the consumer, shouldn't accept anything less. So again, your comments are so important, especially the negative ones. It's important for everyone to see what it takes, and what the people will allow to happen within this market place. I, like you, expect it. james www.micro35.com

April 11th, 2005, 04:09 AM	#404
Craig Bellaire Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 422	Thanks James Thanks for the response,and hard work. But ... "When are the manuals due out?" OK OK I could't help myself.. __________________ Craig Bellaire www.VerticalVideoSolutions.com

April 13th, 2005, 11:46 PM	#405
John Harvey Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: los angeles, ca Posts: 76	How about an excerpt from the manual? My moving (electronics driven, amplitude and frequency adjustable occilation) Borosilicate GG adapter is about done, Nikkor F mount and a Sony Z1. James could you please release some of the info I purchased a couple of months ago? Such as the elements forward of the GG. I would have emailed you directly but where? please respond to erospace@eti-fuelcel.com I expect to be finished in a couple of weeks, I just don't want to repeat any discoveries that the manual covers, after all that's why I bought one, yes, along with others I know. I'm a solidworks driving prototype designer engineer with a full machine shop of my own so the components are really sweat, P+S has nothing on my adapter! thanks for the response jh see pic here www.eti-fuelcel.com/35mm fixed adapter.jpg not for sale, personal use only. It exists and is functioning, I'll put up pic's of the real thing when I get around to it.