Micro35 (original thread)

Steev Dinkins · March 28th, 2005, 06:20 PM

The Guerilla device is based on a static element design. It means you'll see static grain across the whole image (at times) and especially any amount of dust in the optical chain will be visible as well. A static adapter is an exercise in Clean Room style discipline. Indeed, you can see some specs of stuff in their (Guerilla35) footage. If it's a still tripod shot though, you probably wouldn't notice. The design is fine for experimenting, proof of concept/ability, and projects that you can risk failure on, but not anything you'd want to hedge a production with an important client on.

Bottom line is a static design is still a powerful tool that can be used to serious creative advantage, but the history on the alt imaging board in general, has evolved to moving element design as being the holy grail. Rightfully so. The Micro35 is based on a moving element design.

Daniel Skubal · March 28th, 2005, 07:15 PM

I believe the guerilla35's expense comes from precision optics of ground glass.

Steev Dinkins · March 28th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Heh heh. I don't know about that. And, we are officially off topic now.

Brian Valente · March 28th, 2005, 08:16 PM

Just out of curiosity anyone know if the mini35 is based on static or moving element?

Daniel Skubal · March 28th, 2005, 08:38 PM

The mini35 is rotating, I thought the micro35 was stationary, but I guess it isn't (according to Barry Green at dvxuser), the agus is rotational and the guerilla35 is stationary.

Marc Abernathy · March 31st, 2005, 09:02 PM

the mini35 looks like a bouncing ball hitting walls.. its not like a spinning disk like the micro is .. (if you can imgine what im saying)....

Brian Valente · March 31st, 2005, 10:05 PM

no..... no I can't :-P

Jonathon Wilson · March 31st, 2005, 10:10 PM

Think "Spirograph" :)

(well, kind of)

Marc Abernathy · March 31st, 2005, 10:20 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : Think "Spirograph" :)

(well, kind of) -->>>

haa.. thats a good analogy.. think of the old atari game , PONG... the ball goes from the bottom left to top right and so forth and so on... it dose not turn circular like a cd on a motor...

Brian Valente · March 31st, 2005, 10:22 PM

It's hard to believe that kind of approach would work!

Marc Abernathy · March 31st, 2005, 10:28 PM

welp thats how the GG spins in the mini.. i have flown it and worked with it several times... "chas" papert can probably back me up on that ... the GG is smaller than the size of a CD ...

ok... visualize the cd on a spindle.. the hole is right in the center so the cd spins circular.. well imagine the center hole is skewed to the left (or rigt) and not on center.. now trhe CD will spin "wobbly".. or off center... this is how the GG in the mini rotates...

does that make sense? i know my terminology is off here.. dammit jim im a cameraman not a scientist... :)

Daniel Skubal · March 31st, 2005, 10:28 PM

Hmm... the price for the mini35 is still a crime though. Thank goodness there are alternatives.

Jochen Stolle · April 8th, 2005, 03:38 AM

Hi James

do you have any information about the guides?
would be nice to hear somthing from you and you're work
Thank you and thank you for all the work around the micro35.

and can you give me any information about the follow focus
and the mattebox thank you

Jonathon Wilson · April 8th, 2005, 08:02 AM

The spirograph thing does work... Les Dit, and Dan D. and others have built them and discussed them on these pages... You only need to move the image in a circle of a few mm to blur it enough to remove the surface properties.

The way these things work is through the magic of 'eccentrics': Here's a hypothetical example to communicate the concept:

Imagine you've got three pencils stuck into a piece of styrofoam in a triangle. Now you stick three straightpins (like for sewing) into the erasers of the pencils -- straight up and down, but offcenter. For simplicity, say you put the pin very near the edge of the eraser:

Code:

   |  <- pin
+--+
|  |  <- eraser
+--+

Now, you take a piece of mylar film (which will be the ground glass in this case) and put three holes in it for the pins to go through.

NOW... if you rotate the pencils together (using a belt which wraps around them), the tops of the pencils rotate, and makes the pushpins all move in a little tiny circle (a little smaller than the size of the eraser head). Notice that as you do this (in your mind), that the mylar film is also being moved in this same circle.

If there were a hole in the base and the whole thing was on its side, you'd have the basics of how the Mini35 moves its ground glass.

(This is hard to explain without pictures).

Brian Valente · April 8th, 2005, 08:17 AM

Jonathan - you are burying the lead! You have a sweet web site with a lot of great info regarding DOF, building these adapters, etc. I hope you don't mind that I pointed it out!

April 8th, 2005, 03:38 AM	#373
Jochen Stolle New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Neckarsulm, Germany Posts: 11	guides Hi James do you have any information about the guides? would be nice to hear somthing from you and you're work Thank you and thank you for all the work around the micro35. and can you give me any information about the follow focus and the mattebox thank you __________________ jay

April 8th, 2005, 08:02 AM	#374
Jonathon Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 182	The spirograph thing does work... Les Dit, and Dan D. and others have built them and discussed them on these pages... You only need to move the image in a circle of a few mm to blur it enough to remove the surface properties. The way these things work is through the magic of 'eccentrics': Here's a hypothetical example to communicate the concept: Imagine you've got three pencils stuck into a piece of styrofoam in a triangle. Now you stick three straightpins (like for sewing) into the erasers of the pencils -- straight up and down, but offcenter. For simplicity, say you put the pin very near the edge of the eraser: Code: \| <- pin +--+ \| \| <- eraser +--+ Now, you take a piece of mylar film (which will be the ground glass in this case) and put three holes in it for the pins to go through. NOW... if you rotate the pencils together (using a belt which wraps around them), the tops of the pencils rotate, and makes the pushpins all move in a little tiny circle (a little smaller than the size of the eraser head). Notice that as you do this (in your mind), that the mylar film is also being moved in this same circle. If there were a hole in the base and the whole thing was on its side, you'd have the basics of how the Mini35 moves its ground glass. (This is hard to explain without pictures). __________________ http://www.aqua-web.com

April 8th, 2005, 08:17 AM	#375
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	Jonathan - you are burying the lead! You have a sweet web site with a lot of great info regarding DOF, building these adapters, etc. I hope you don't mind that I pointed it out! __________________ ========================== Brian Valente Redrock Microsystems

March 28th, 2005, 06:20 PM	#361
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	The Guerilla device is based on a static element design. It means you'll see static grain across the whole image (at times) and especially any amount of dust in the optical chain will be visible as well. A static adapter is an exercise in Clean Room style discipline. Indeed, you can see some specs of stuff in their (Guerilla35) footage. If it's a still tripod shot though, you probably wouldn't notice. The design is fine for experimenting, proof of concept/ability, and projects that you can risk failure on, but not anything you'd want to hedge a production with an important client on. Bottom line is a static design is still a powerful tool that can be used to serious creative advantage, but the history on the alt imaging board in general, has evolved to moving element design as being the holy grail. Rightfully so. The Micro35 is based on a moving element design.

March 28th, 2005, 07:15 PM	#362
Daniel Skubal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 71	I believe the guerilla35's expense comes from precision optics of ground glass.

March 28th, 2005, 07:22 PM	#363
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	Heh heh. I don't know about that. And, we are officially off topic now.

March 28th, 2005, 08:16 PM	#364
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	Just out of curiosity anyone know if the mini35 is based on static or moving element?

March 28th, 2005, 08:38 PM	#365
Daniel Skubal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 71	The mini35 is rotating, I thought the micro35 was stationary, but I guess it isn't (according to Barry Green at dvxuser), the agus is rotational and the guerilla35 is stationary.

March 31st, 2005, 09:02 PM	#366
Marc Abernathy New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ATL Posts: 8	the mini35 looks like a bouncing ball hitting walls.. its not like a spinning disk like the micro is .. (if you can imgine what im saying)....

March 31st, 2005, 10:05 PM	#367
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	no..... no I can't :-P

March 31st, 2005, 10:10 PM	#368
Jonathon Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 182	Think "Spirograph" :) (well, kind of)

March 31st, 2005, 10:20 PM	#369
Marc Abernathy New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ATL Posts: 8	<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathon Wilson : Think "Spirograph" :) (well, kind of) -->>> haa.. thats a good analogy.. think of the old atari game , PONG... the ball goes from the bottom left to top right and so forth and so on... it dose not turn circular like a cd on a motor...

March 31st, 2005, 10:22 PM	#370
Brian Valente Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 293	It's hard to believe that kind of approach would work!

March 31st, 2005, 10:28 PM	#371
Marc Abernathy New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ATL Posts: 8	welp thats how the GG spins in the mini.. i have flown it and worked with it several times... "chas" papert can probably back me up on that ... the GG is smaller than the size of a CD ... ok... visualize the cd on a spindle.. the hole is right in the center so the cd spins circular.. well imagine the center hole is skewed to the left (or rigt) and not on center.. now trhe CD will spin "wobbly".. or off center... this is how the GG in the mini rotates... does that make sense? i know my terminology is off here.. dammit jim im a cameraman not a scientist... :)

March 31st, 2005, 10:28 PM	#372
Daniel Skubal Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 71	Hmm... the price for the mini35 is still a crime though. Thank goodness there are alternatives.