Ground Glass Grain

Chris Rubin · December 24th, 2004, 09:00 AM

I find Aftereffects most convenient for jobs like this, because you have to create a project like Bob suggested only once. With every new clip, you just replace the incoming file and you're done. Aftereffects also supports realtime preview (given your system can handle it).

The 'layer stacking' Bob describes seems to be the same as native 'echo' function in aftereffects. I've used it to clean up nighttime footage in music videos I've done.

Chris

Jim Lafferty · December 25th, 2004, 10:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Rubin : I find Aftereffects most convenient for jobs like this, because you have to create a project like Bob suggested only once. With every new clip, you just replace the incoming file and you're done. Aftereffects also supports realtime preview (given your system can handle it).

The 'layer stacking' Bob describes seems to be the same as native 'echo' function in aftereffects. I've used it to clean up nighttime footage in music videos I've done.

Chris -->>>

You should be able to just replace media in Vegas, too. Ditto the realtime preview.

- jim

Richard Mellor · December 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM

hi everyone I sent a email to cris hurd with a photo of the static adapter .I will be linking to it soon

Jim Lafferty · January 1st, 2005, 10:53 AM

I've been trying to replicate Chris's results using Vegas with mixed progress.

In Vegas, I'm running the inverted grain image along a track, and parenting it to a copy of the footage I'm degraining. Then, I set the grain track to luma mask, and on the copy of the footage (the composite child), I'm adjusting luma up, to bring the darker grain of the image within the range of the brighter grain of the original footage.

All of this is placed over the original footage, left untouched.

I will say it *supresses* the grain, but does not remove it entirely -- it looks good for stills, but in motion it doesn't add up to a 100% grainless image, and in reality there's little aesthetic difference between one kind of grain and the other.

I tried the AE 6.5 demo today, just to see if AE would treat the image differently than Vegas using Chris's technique -- the results aren't as good as I got with Vegas, but I'm left with the impression that with a little tweaking, I could get them close to one another. Still, it's not a completely grainless image.

I'd like to be proven wrong -- Chris, if you've got some footage to show at full DV res, I'd be happy to host it for a bit. I'd really like to see the results in motion...

- jim

Filip Kovcin · January 1st, 2005, 11:10 AM

just wandering - did anyone tryed to subtract grain with "digital fusion" (probably now "maya fusion")?
some time ago i saw brilliant results with that software, but i never use it.
maybe someone has expirience with it?

filip

Aaron Shaw · January 1st, 2005, 11:31 AM

I'm not sure of this but you could try using After Effect's (6.5 pro) degrainer to do this task. I know you have to sample the footage first - perhaps you could use the grain image as this sample? I think AE will literally perform a subtraction (not just a manipulation of overlay settings).

Richard Mellor · January 2nd, 2005, 05:41 PM

Hi everyone: If anybody has info on this one too.

http://www.retouchpro.com/reviews/grainsurgery/

John Nagle · January 2nd, 2005, 06:39 PM

Richard,

I have seen footage that was treated with Grain Surgery and the results were stunning.

On another note I was talking to a friend who is involved in sandblasting and he says he can get a finish down to 3 microns so I was wondering what would be the ideal finish for frosting glass in microns or grit rating?

Chris Rubin · January 3rd, 2005, 03:31 AM

I'm sorry, but grain surgery just doesn't do it. Just blurs your fine detail. If you want good results, the only decent noise reduction plug-in I'm aware of is NeatImage. But whatever you use, the video will still look 'doctored'.

Chris

Aaron Shaw · January 3rd, 2005, 10:48 AM

Chris, I know for a fact that it does more than blur fine detail. You literally sample an area of the frame and the software attempts to intelligently remove the noise. Doesn't always work well of course but it can work amazingly well when done correctly.

Jim Lafferty · January 3rd, 2005, 10:57 AM

Chris,

Any chance we can see some footage using your method?

I'm not getting stellar results and I'm worried it's just because I'm missing something...

- jim

Chris Rubin · January 3rd, 2005, 02:16 PM

I'll post my tests as soon as I get my adapter assembed again (in a few weeks probably). I designed a new adapter with threaded tubes (enables me to adjust the gg distance from both the camera lens and the 35mm lens on the fly) and I'm waiting for the parts to be finished.

Richard Mellor · January 3rd, 2005, 02:32 PM

I have been thinking about adding this part.

http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetai...roduct_ID=1486

Joshua Starnes · January 3rd, 2005, 03:32 PM

Richard, when are you going to e-mail out some information on the finished adaptor you were talking about?

Richard Mellor · January 4th, 2005, 09:18 PM

hi everyone: this is a link to a new thread with complete parts list
and photo

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=37296

December 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM	#48
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	static adapter hi everyone I sent a email to cris hurd with a photo of the static adapter .I will be linking to it soon

January 1st, 2005, 10:53 AM	#49
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	I've been trying to replicate Chris's results using Vegas with mixed progress. In Vegas, I'm running the inverted grain image along a track, and parenting it to a copy of the footage I'm degraining. Then, I set the grain track to luma mask, and on the copy of the footage (the composite child), I'm adjusting luma up, to bring the darker grain of the image within the range of the brighter grain of the original footage. All of this is placed over the original footage, left untouched. I will say it supresses the grain, but does not remove it entirely -- it looks good for stills, but in motion it doesn't add up to a 100% grainless image, and in reality there's little aesthetic difference between one kind of grain and the other. I tried the AE 6.5 demo today, just to see if AE would treat the image differently than Vegas using Chris's technique -- the results aren't as good as I got with Vegas, but I'm left with the impression that with a little tweaking, I could get them close to one another. Still, it's not a completely grainless image. I'd like to be proven wrong -- Chris, if you've got some footage to show at full DV res, I'd be happy to host it for a bit. I'd really like to see the results in motion... - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

January 2nd, 2005, 05:41 PM	#52
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	grain Hi everyone: If anybody has info on this one too. http://www.retouchpro.com/reviews/grainsurgery/

January 3rd, 2005, 02:32 PM	#58
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	static adapter I have been thinking about adding this part. http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetai...roduct_ID=1486

January 4th, 2005, 09:18 PM	#60
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	35mm adapter parts list hi everyone: this is a link to a new thread with complete parts list and photo http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=37296

December 24th, 2004, 09:00 AM	#46
Chris Rubin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 38	I find Aftereffects most convenient for jobs like this, because you have to create a project like Bob suggested only once. With every new clip, you just replace the incoming file and you're done. Aftereffects also supports realtime preview (given your system can handle it). The 'layer stacking' Bob describes seems to be the same as native 'echo' function in aftereffects. I've used it to clean up nighttime footage in music videos I've done. Chris

December 25th, 2004, 10:27 AM	#47
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Rubin : I find Aftereffects most convenient for jobs like this, because you have to create a project like Bob suggested only once. With every new clip, you just replace the incoming file and you're done. Aftereffects also supports realtime preview (given your system can handle it). The 'layer stacking' Bob describes seems to be the same as native 'echo' function in aftereffects. I've used it to clean up nighttime footage in music videos I've done. Chris -->>> You should be able to just replace media in Vegas, too. Ditto the realtime preview. - jim

January 1st, 2005, 11:10 AM	#50
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	just wandering - did anyone tryed to subtract grain with "digital fusion" (probably now "maya fusion")? some time ago i saw brilliant results with that software, but i never use it. maybe someone has expirience with it? filip

January 1st, 2005, 11:31 AM	#51
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	I'm not sure of this but you could try using After Effect's (6.5 pro) degrainer to do this task. I know you have to sample the footage first - perhaps you could use the grain image as this sample? I think AE will literally perform a subtraction (not just a manipulation of overlay settings).

January 2nd, 2005, 06:39 PM	#53
John Nagle Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	Richard, I have seen footage that was treated with Grain Surgery and the results were stunning. On another note I was talking to a friend who is involved in sandblasting and he says he can get a finish down to 3 microns so I was wondering what would be the ideal finish for frosting glass in microns or grit rating?

January 3rd, 2005, 03:31 AM	#54
Chris Rubin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 38	I'm sorry, but grain surgery just doesn't do it. Just blurs your fine detail. If you want good results, the only decent noise reduction plug-in I'm aware of is NeatImage. But whatever you use, the video will still look 'doctored'. Chris

January 3rd, 2005, 10:48 AM	#55
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Chris, I know for a fact that it does more than blur fine detail. You literally sample an area of the frame and the software attempts to intelligently remove the noise. Doesn't always work well of course but it can work amazingly well when done correctly.

January 3rd, 2005, 10:57 AM	#56
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Chris, Any chance we can see some footage using your method? I'm not getting stellar results and I'm worried it's just because I'm missing something... - jim

January 3rd, 2005, 02:16 PM	#57
Chris Rubin Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 38	I'll post my tests as soon as I get my adapter assembed again (in a few weeks probably). I designed a new adapter with threaded tubes (enables me to adjust the gg distance from both the camera lens and the 35mm lens on the fly) and I'm waiting for the parts to be finished.

January 3rd, 2005, 03:32 PM	#59
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	Richard, when are you going to e-mail out some information on the finished adaptor you were talking about?