New moving ground glass mechanism

Dan Diaconu · February 24th, 2005, 11:08 AM

Whether you make fun or no,
I need to know this:
would anyone interested in ordering this device prefer to see more footage in a real life production?
I can "organize" something, but this will take some time.
I can burn some DVD's afterwards, so you can see the footage first hand, uncompressed. Would this be enough?
I take orders now. Base unit is US $3500.
What you get:
A Nikon mount, the water/dust/shock (to a certain extent) proof unit, a combo 72mm +3+2 CU MC lens and a 1/2" rods support with a base plate for your camcorder and an intermediate tripod mounting plate.
What you will also need (IMHO) NOT included:
Gear on your lens, MB, follow focus, a monitor (to flip the image for framing purposes) another support to flip the camera (if you do not want to flip the footage in post)
Whoever is interested, email me off list.

Dan Diaconu · February 24th, 2005, 01:45 PM

Finally, the batteries on the unit built in Dec 2004 died this morning.
I built a charger (you will get one too) and now they are back in business. Since I used it for quite a few test, but over a long period of time, I can only guesstimate the working time would be 20?-30? continuous hours?

Dogus Aslan · February 24th, 2005, 05:33 PM

hey dan isnt $3500 too much...

what is the lowest price we would pay and get the dof effect?

Les Dit · February 24th, 2005, 06:48 PM

Dan's setup is plug and play.
My 'kit' form will be under $500.
Same orbiting glass motion, about the same size. (3.5" Dia.)
High bit rate HD video posted previously.
NO image shake. No grain.
I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part.

Walmart priced kit thru CNC machining.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Dogus Aslan : hey dan isnt $3500 too much...

what is the lowest price we would pay and get the dof effect? -->>>

Dan Diaconu · February 24th, 2005, 06:56 PM

To get dirt cheap DOF, all you need is the camcorder on sticks, and a lens with a GG (both handheld) in front of it and you have it.
.............................................................................
Too little...... or too much....is soooo relative.....
It depends of how much one makes/has available. If is just for fun (and you can afford this kind of "toys"), no problemos.
If you can not afford this kind of "toys" you might as well look at them as TOOLS. If this unit is mounted on a Z1 and you start a series making $1500/day (obviously with a set of GEARED PRIMES), than I do not think is too much, to get your money back in less than three days.
But then again, you might need skills as a DP/op to get there.

From your POV, you may be right.

From my POV, having spent the last 8 months refining one exclusive thing, and getting where I got, I might be right too.

There is no absolute right or wrong, just different opinions....
God knows better and we all get as much as we deserve, no more, no less.

P+S is expensive.
I am expensive.......

Ussually you get what you pay for. This price will change (so I am not seen as exception to the rule) once the results are documented.
I just got a call for a feature in March. We will see after.

To answer your question:

If I can make money with it, I'd pay the price and start seeing a revenue. If I can not make money with it, I would not bother.
If I would like/love it, but just not shure if I can use it or if I can afford to try and see if it makes me money or no, I would say just what you said.

Fair enough?

As much as I tried to help you guys, with pics and clips on my site , so you do not have to WASTE A TON OF MONEY AND COUNTLESS MAN/HOURS EVERY DAY, trying all possible shortcuts that lead no where and give you the best imaging device (point me to another one better, please) for a third of the lowest price of the mini35 and.....
still no good........

Joel Aaron · February 24th, 2005, 06:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit :
I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part.
-->>>

Les, how long do you think that will take you?

Dan Diaconu · February 24th, 2005, 07:01 PM

Les,
What can I say but applaud you.
You are a genius (although that makes me look like an idiot having spent so much time on the same issue)
I only wished you would have got were you are now a bit sooner, so I can buy it from you even at $2000 (not 500) and not have to work on it for so long....
Damn wrong timing again....

Joel Aaron · February 24th, 2005, 07:48 PM

<<<--
As much as I tried to help you guys, with pics and clips on my site , so you do not have to WASTE A TON OF MONEY AND COUNTLESS MAN/HOURS EVERY DAY, trying all possible shortcuts that lead no where and give you the best imaging device (point me to another one better, please) for a third of the lowest price of the mini35 and.....
still no good........
-->>>

Well to be fair Dan, I don't think anyone around here ever implied they'd cough up $3500 for an original P&S or anything else. These guys paid that much for their camera.

In fact, I told you myself I thought the top end around here was probably $1k and maybe $1500. I still think it is... but I could be wrong. I thought and still do think the real magic number is under $500 for people to just give up building and start buying HERE.

There are guys here complaining that Jim's Micro35 guide went up $10.

I do think you make a very reasonable point when you say a working Pro might shell out more. Clearly people have purchased the P&S and it's a lot more cash. I don't know how many of those are flying off the shelves anymore though (if they ever did fly off the shelves). BUT P&S marketed the hell out of their unit and had Seinfeld shooting a commercial for American Express with it.

How many units has MovieTube sold? My guess is not many if any. And they had a pretty impressive start to their website.

I think if you want to sell this thing before the technology is obsolete you're going to have to get it manufactured for real in quantity to drive the cost way down. That probably means investors and giving up a share of the pie OR you're going to have to really organize yourself into a real business and get some SERIOUS marketing and public relations help and go right after the folks with the money.

Or keep it for yourself and make movies and profit on that. Or rent them out... but pick a reasonable price for the rental. At $200/day no one here will go for that.

My advice is get your device in the hands of some talented visual artists and see what they can do with it in trade for them allowing you to use their footage. Better still, HIRE a great DP for a day.

Also - a side by side comparison against Les' and James' devices will go a long way to you proving your point when the time comes. Your target market is the people who want the best at any cost and aren't worried that they are getting a "one off" from a company that would disappear if the owner has a heart attack tomorrow. Those people are out there, but you'll be working to find them.

Dan Diaconu · February 24th, 2005, 08:25 PM

I am obviously playing the right music at the wrong table.
You are right. Got to move on. Thanks for the comments.

Les Dit · February 24th, 2005, 08:38 PM

A couple of weeks at the most. I have too many irons in the fire is the problem. Luckily the hard part is done, the stable GG motion.

-Les
<<<-- Originally posted by Joel Aaron : <<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit :
I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part.
-->>>

Les, how long do you think that will take you? -->>>

Brett Erskine · February 25th, 2005, 03:44 AM

Dan I agree with your point and think its a fair price considering the quality of your device but I preceive a road block ahead in your sales. At $3,500 you are no longer targeting most of the DIY/ passionate hobbist but serious film makers that most likely make their living doing their craft. The only problem with this market is they are used to using professional, commercially made equipment that is of the up most quality and doesnt require the user to compromise or mickey mouse anything while they work with it. This is where the issue of the image still recording upside down might be a turn off to these particular customers.

As a DIYer kind of guy I dont mind throwing a magnet on the side of my LCD to trick it to flip its image or mounting a additional screen upside down to view it properly but for the pros that want and NEED things to work when they HAVE to work I would think they would really want to have a system thats a complete solution right out of the box or from the rental house.

So I would recomend you offer some form of on set solution to this problem of the image being upside down.

A few possible ideas are to pack ONE of the following in with your adapters:

1)A very compact device that would fit to the firewire/rca out of the camera that electronically rotates the image upright before it hits any on set monitor.

2)Additional small on camera LCD screen that can be mounted various places on the camera that can be used with a mount that lets you easily physically rotate the screen OR a feature of rotating the image electronically. In this second example this monitor could also have a line out for the corrected image to be output to another on set monitor

3)Or at the very least offer capture software plugins to allow the image to be rotated on the fly and captured up right with the corrected image.

Once again I dont need this stuff and most of the people of this board wont either but talk to pro cinematographers and I think they are going to almost demand some type of complete solution.

Just a opinion. Hope it helps.

Rai Orz · February 25th, 2005, 04:30 AM

Dan, i agree with Brett and i add this: Your first solution looks like a real professional thing, also the small design (Your last upside down camara mount... sorry,... not for prof.). I think go on your first way and add professional parts like

a.) optical up side down solution
b.) relay lens for more light and direct mount to prof. cameras.

(a + b together reduce also the length down to round 50-80mm and the whole system will be smaller than a P&S)
I wish, i had more time, but remember also the other thing in our email, maybe i can help and we work together?

Dan Diaconu · February 25th, 2005, 07:43 AM

Brett, thank you for your input. It helps.
1I have sorted out the U/D image but no longer pics or clips about anything.
Rai and Brett read my post: the up side down camera was a solution for ME only! Why, because I use Premiere6 (did not have time to play with other programs) and it does not rotate the image without artifacts. All other programs do it clean, on the fly (including Premiere Pro)
2. You would be surprised what the "pro" world goes through when BUDGET comes to play!!!!! and how many dedicated cinematographers have to live now shooting F900 instead of Arriflex/Panavision. Painful but real. At another level, Z1 and another "toys" coming out will broaden the spectrum of "pro" world and offer alternative "imaging" for even tighter budgets (like it or not) and MOST producers like to "save a buck" whenever they can, HOWEVER they can. Long story short: the best for the buck. A classic: "why do you need lights if you shoot video anyway?"
Rai, I have re to your emails a while ago. Check your box.

Steev Dinkins · February 25th, 2005, 11:33 AM

I'm also out, at that price for now. I'll reconsider if I can get some $10k projects going based on my static adapter created material.

This whole forum is a big lesson in engineering, business, and economics. Who needs college!

steev
www.holyzoo.com

Dan Diaconu · February 25th, 2005, 03:49 PM

I do.
That's why I ended up working on a lathe......
cuzI aint goat no ducation.

February 24th, 2005, 11:08 AM	#196
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Whether you make fun or no, I need to know this: would anyone interested in ordering this device prefer to see more footage in a real life production? I can "organize" something, but this will take some time. I can burn some DVD's afterwards, so you can see the footage first hand, uncompressed. Would this be enough? I take orders now. Base unit is US $3500. What you get: A Nikon mount, the water/dust/shock (to a certain extent) proof unit, a combo 72mm +3+2 CU MC lens and a 1/2" rods support with a base plate for your camcorder and an intermediate tripod mounting plate. What you will also need (IMHO) NOT included: Gear on your lens, MB, follow focus, a monitor (to flip the image for framing purposes) another support to flip the camera (if you do not want to flip the footage in post) Whoever is interested, email me off list.

February 24th, 2005, 01:45 PM	#197
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Finally, the batteries on the unit built in Dec 2004 died this morning. I built a charger (you will get one too) and now they are back in business. Since I used it for quite a few test, but over a long period of time, I can only guesstimate the working time would be 20?-30? continuous hours?

February 24th, 2005, 05:33 PM	#198
Dogus Aslan Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 56	hey dan isnt $3500 too much... what is the lowest price we would pay and get the dof effect?

February 24th, 2005, 06:48 PM	#199
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Dan's setup is plug and play. My 'kit' form will be under $500. Same orbiting glass motion, about the same size. (3.5" Dia.) High bit rate HD video posted previously. NO image shake. No grain. I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part. Walmart priced kit thru CNC machining. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Dogus Aslan : hey dan isnt $3500 too much... what is the lowest price we would pay and get the dof effect? -->>>

February 24th, 2005, 06:56 PM	#200
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	To get dirt cheap DOF, all you need is the camcorder on sticks, and a lens with a GG (both handheld) in front of it and you have it. ............................................................................. Too little...... or too much....is soooo relative..... It depends of how much one makes/has available. If is just for fun (and you can afford this kind of "toys"), no problemos. If you can not afford this kind of "toys" you might as well look at them as TOOLS. If this unit is mounted on a Z1 and you start a series making $1500/day (obviously with a set of GEARED PRIMES), than I do not think is too much, to get your money back in less than three days. But then again, you might need skills as a DP/op to get there. From your POV, you may be right. From my POV, having spent the last 8 months refining one exclusive thing, and getting where I got, I might be right too. There is no absolute right or wrong, just different opinions.... God knows better and we all get as much as we deserve, no more, no less. P+S is expensive. I am expensive....... Ussually you get what you pay for. This price will change (so I am not seen as exception to the rule) once the results are documented. I just got a call for a feature in March. We will see after. To answer your question: If I can make money with it, I'd pay the price and start seeing a revenue. If I can not make money with it, I would not bother. If I would like/love it, but just not shure if I can use it or if I can afford to try and see if it makes me money or no, I would say just what you said. Fair enough? As much as I tried to help you guys, with pics and clips on my site , so you do not have to WASTE A TON OF MONEY AND COUNTLESS MAN/HOURS EVERY DAY, trying all possible shortcuts that lead no where and give you the best imaging device (point me to another one better, please) for a third of the lowest price of the mini35 and..... still no good........

February 24th, 2005, 06:57 PM	#201
Joel Aaron Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ - USA Posts: 300	<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part. -->>> Les, how long do you think that will take you?

February 24th, 2005, 07:01 PM	#202
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Les, What can I say but applaud you. You are a genius (although that makes me look like an idiot having spent so much time on the same issue) I only wished you would have got were you are now a bit sooner, so I can buy it from you even at $2000 (not 500) and not have to work on it for so long.... Damn wrong timing again....

February 24th, 2005, 07:48 PM	#203
Joel Aaron Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ - USA Posts: 300	<<<-- As much as I tried to help you guys, with pics and clips on my site , so you do not have to WASTE A TON OF MONEY AND COUNTLESS MAN/HOURS EVERY DAY, trying all possible shortcuts that lead no where and give you the best imaging device (point me to another one better, please) for a third of the lowest price of the mini35 and..... still no good........ -->>> Well to be fair Dan, I don't think anyone around here ever implied they'd cough up $3500 for an original P&S or anything else. These guys paid that much for their camera. In fact, I told you myself I thought the top end around here was probably $1k and maybe $1500. I still think it is... but I could be wrong. I thought and still do think the real magic number is under $500 for people to just give up building and start buying HERE. There are guys here complaining that Jim's Micro35 guide went up $10. I do think you make a very reasonable point when you say a working Pro might shell out more. Clearly people have purchased the P&S and it's a lot more cash. I don't know how many of those are flying off the shelves anymore though (if they ever did fly off the shelves). BUT P&S marketed the hell out of their unit and had Seinfeld shooting a commercial for American Express with it. How many units has MovieTube sold? My guess is not many if any. And they had a pretty impressive start to their website. I think if you want to sell this thing before the technology is obsolete you're going to have to get it manufactured for real in quantity to drive the cost way down. That probably means investors and giving up a share of the pie OR you're going to have to really organize yourself into a real business and get some SERIOUS marketing and public relations help and go right after the folks with the money. Or keep it for yourself and make movies and profit on that. Or rent them out... but pick a reasonable price for the rental. At $200/day no one here will go for that. My advice is get your device in the hands of some talented visual artists and see what they can do with it in trade for them allowing you to use their footage. Better still, HIRE a great DP for a day. Also - a side by side comparison against Les' and James' devices will go a long way to you proving your point when the time comes. Your target market is the people who want the best at any cost and aren't worried that they are getting a "one off" from a company that would disappear if the owner has a heart attack tomorrow. Those people are out there, but you'll be working to find them.

February 24th, 2005, 08:25 PM	#204
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	I am obviously playing the right music at the wrong table. You are right. Got to move on. Thanks for the comments.

February 24th, 2005, 08:38 PM	#205
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	A couple of weeks at the most. I have too many irons in the fire is the problem. Luckily the hard part is done, the stable GG motion. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Joel Aaron : <<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : I'm just waiting to finalize the condenser lens part. -->>> Les, how long do you think that will take you? -->>>

February 25th, 2005, 03:44 AM	#206
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Dan I agree with your point and think its a fair price considering the quality of your device but I preceive a road block ahead in your sales. At $3,500 you are no longer targeting most of the DIY/ passionate hobbist but serious film makers that most likely make their living doing their craft. The only problem with this market is they are used to using professional, commercially made equipment that is of the up most quality and doesnt require the user to compromise or mickey mouse anything while they work with it. This is where the issue of the image still recording upside down might be a turn off to these particular customers. As a DIYer kind of guy I dont mind throwing a magnet on the side of my LCD to trick it to flip its image or mounting a additional screen upside down to view it properly but for the pros that want and NEED things to work when they HAVE to work I would think they would really want to have a system thats a complete solution right out of the box or from the rental house. So I would recomend you offer some form of on set solution to this problem of the image being upside down. A few possible ideas are to pack ONE of the following in with your adapters: 1)A very compact device that would fit to the firewire/rca out of the camera that electronically rotates the image upright before it hits any on set monitor. 2)Additional small on camera LCD screen that can be mounted various places on the camera that can be used with a mount that lets you easily physically rotate the screen OR a feature of rotating the image electronically. In this second example this monitor could also have a line out for the corrected image to be output to another on set monitor 3)Or at the very least offer capture software plugins to allow the image to be rotated on the fly and captured up right with the corrected image. Once again I dont need this stuff and most of the people of this board wont either but talk to pro cinematographers and I think they are going to almost demand some type of complete solution. Just a opinion. Hope it helps.

February 25th, 2005, 04:30 AM	#207
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Dan, i agree with Brett and i add this: Your first solution looks like a real professional thing, also the small design (Your last upside down camara mount... sorry,... not for prof.). I think go on your first way and add professional parts like a.) optical up side down solution b.) relay lens for more light and direct mount to prof. cameras. (a + b together reduce also the length down to round 50-80mm and the whole system will be smaller than a P&S) I wish, i had more time, but remember also the other thing in our email, maybe i can help and we work together?

February 25th, 2005, 07:43 AM	#208
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Brett, thank you for your input. It helps. 1I have sorted out the U/D image but no longer pics or clips about anything. Rai and Brett read my post: the up side down camera was a solution for ME only! Why, because I use Premiere6 (did not have time to play with other programs) and it does not rotate the image without artifacts. All other programs do it clean, on the fly (including Premiere Pro) 2. You would be surprised what the "pro" world goes through when BUDGET comes to play!!!!! and how many dedicated cinematographers have to live now shooting F900 instead of Arriflex/Panavision. Painful but real. At another level, Z1 and another "toys" coming out will broaden the spectrum of "pro" world and offer alternative "imaging" for even tighter budgets (like it or not) and MOST producers like to "save a buck" whenever they can, HOWEVER they can. Long story short: the best for the buck. A classic: "why do you need lights if you shoot video anyway?" Rai, I have re to your emails a while ago. Check your box.

February 25th, 2005, 11:33 AM	#209
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	I'm also out, at that price for now. I'll reconsider if I can get some $10k projects going based on my static adapter created material. This whole forum is a big lesson in engineering, business, and economics. Who needs college! steev www.holyzoo.com

February 25th, 2005, 03:49 PM	#210
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	I do. That's why I ended up working on a lathe...... cuzI aint goat no ducation.