Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera

Rai Orz · November 30th, 2004, 10:54 AM

Some inside details about DRAKE´s bit depth:

12, 10 or 8 Bit?

1.) DRAKE have build in white balance.
(If you capture without white balance, you must corrected it in post. But this cost up to 2Bits)

2.) We use a (programmable) lookup table to reduce the white balanced pictures from 10 Bits to 8Bits.

At the end, we write 8Bit to harddisk, but with mutch more informations. We can also say, DRAKE captured with 10or12Bit,
its just a way of compression.

Wayne Morellini · December 1st, 2004, 07:24 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Markus Rupprecht : By the way, we think about showing up at Sundance in January. We check if we can organize and afford it. If yes this would be a opportunity for the U.S. folks to dance with a drake. We'll see.

Greets
Markus -->>>

As your showing German technology and innovation with a first "wonder" camera, maybe you can apply to government trade agency, or film agency, or research and developement agency, for a grant to take and show off your camera at Sundance (good business).

Maybe you can also even get a grant to come to the Australian "Cairns" film festival, and I can drive down the road and see you ;).

Im dissapionted the IBIS5A doesn't have the extra colour and light pickup, are they ever going to improve that chip?

Wayne.

Gary McClurg · December 8th, 2004, 10:19 AM

Wasn't the web site suppose to be up today.

Just wondering what the link to it is?

Thanks

Christian Schmitt · December 13th, 2004, 02:33 AM

Did i just hear an HO HO HO...?
Maybe HD-Santa is coming by soon, I mean only, if we have been good kids, have you guys?
My wish for this year: A small camera that makes biiiiiiiiiig pictures ;o]

Wayne Morellini · December 13th, 2004, 03:11 AM

That's what I thought, but all I can find is the complete presentation being on the 14th.

By the way Rai, over the other thread it looks like Sumix is using a new version of the IBIS5 with supposedly big improvements. Any plans to use a new version of the chip on the Drake if it becomes available?

Régine Weinberg · December 13th, 2004, 03:13 AM

Today 13th of december on http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/
nothing about Drake a page with no no no information
no forum about this hot future indie cam !!!

Quote
-----------------------------------------------------
To everybody from Germany or at least central europe:
On december 10. we will introduce our drake system to the public at a filmmaker congress in Halle (near Leipzig). Check out their webpage for details (in german)

http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/

We will show our baby with a decent beamer in live operation and also show the color graded material and will show up with the team to answer questions and give everybody the opportunity to try the camera out.
___________________________________

as it is German nothing on slashcam or hackermovies so what is going on ??

Wayne Morellini · December 13th, 2004, 03:38 AM

Yes, I remember that, the date give in the thread here was the 14th for the presentation, so I don't know.

Rai Orz · December 13th, 2004, 04:15 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : Short news about DRAKE:
Timeline for presentation the whole system will be the 12.14.2004. -->>>

This will be tomorrow...

Please let me clear some things: People on dvinfo talk since long time about (home made) hd-cameras. Long time ago, some guys said: "We will have THE best solution, just wait for tomorrow..." Also long time ago, they said, altasens will be the best chip and it came out next mounth. This was in june, in september again and now they talk about march...

BTW: Who saw a motion picture from a altasens chip with a fast wide angle cine lens in front of it? Remember, altasens will have only rolling shutter and microlenses. Two very bad things for cinema.

In the meantime DRAKE work.

But dont forget: A camera head + storage solution is just one part of the way. Long time ago some people talk about costs of complete systems. Take just a look a www.chrosziel.com and add the prices of support rig + 16:9 mattebox + follow focus system. Round $ 5000,- only for that?
Now, i can say: Drake will have also all those parts include.

Since friday we have a first 35mm blow up. Amazing! Cine grade post software is also available. Ser. production (mechanical parts) start this week, so DRAKE will be available in Feb. 2005.

Future points: We work on differnt chip solutions. (also 3 chips for best colors) up to full optical 35mm size. Upgrade options.

@Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future.

@Ronald: I saw you not there, why? It was a good live forum, not a internet forum. Slashcam is a forum for dv user, not for cine. But you will find informations on hackermovies and others, just wait.

Wayne Morellini · December 13th, 2004, 05:08 AM

The rolling shutter on the altasens is so fast as to be a non isue. I think microslense are good (for gathering extra light) but I also want to use very very fast lense system :(. One of my ideas I am to be working on can also get past the microlense problem and make it a complete solution (don't ask still o be investigated, conract only).

I have links to building your own equipment (D.I.Y) sites, so all these things canbe done for less than 10th, or less, of price of cinema equipment. So for bottom budget equipment only the camera/capture systems matters, along with edit system, if cinerella can't be used. I have seen some amazing stuff done for hundreds of dollers + equipment, so equipment costs matters a lot at this level. The only unaviodable part (for now) is film transfer, marketing and distribution, but if I have something really good I should be able to convinve somebody to invest, or distributor, otherwise talk to video market. So I am looking for cheap*good camera. FEB is a longtime too, I hought it would be in production this mointh?

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz :
@Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future.
-->>>

I remember speaking about the IBIS, but not any thing about the IBIS5 mono being a low light sensation, or even a three chip version of it. For my piece of mind, is there a newer version than the IBIS5A, and how is it better in M version than what we have seen. Is the FEB release because of a newer version? I have seen their technology page, and not all features are in the IBIS5 yet, the intergrated memory thing would significantly increase global/rolling shutter light pickup. There was something about gain or lattitude as well, that would make the IBIS5 a good chip to work with. Still I have tried to calculate their values using the maximun "-e" cell satutation value as the basis of the calculation and I think the niose issues need to be significantly improved, because if my calculations are correct there will be 4 bits of niose range at 36db gain on an 8bit image (that doesn't quiet sound right maybe I have got my figures mixed up) pluss some other things like dark current etc. So for low light work it will probably be a lot more niosy than Altasens, in normal optimal lighting with 0 gain I think there would be niose in the lowest bit of 10 bits. But fix pattern niose is .5% which should mean that at least the lowest bit of 8 bit should be affected. Am I reading these specs right, or is the situation a lo better?

I wait tommorrow with baited breath, it doesn't matter too much which camera I buy, as long as it suites me.

Markus Rupprecht · December 13th, 2004, 05:20 AM

Hey folks,

Don't blame us for not making it our first priority to update this forum. We have a simple motto: work first, talk later.

Everybody had the chance to show up in Leipzig. Some did and we hat a great time there, doing real time color correction, showing the material on a big HDTV beamer and playing around with the 35mm print.

For everybody who couldn't come, here are some Drake pictures, showing the prototype. The final case will be ready in January, be titanium and dark blue, everything else will look rather identical. What you can't see is the focus pulling device, it's currently being prepared for the big shooting in 4 days. And the handles are missing, so I uploaded the 3D concept images, where you can see them. The big screen is detachable and can be mounted on a tripod or whatever. New job for the camera assistant, to see where the best position for the screen is for each shot.

Expect some interesting video clips about the usage of the camera on set in early january and please be patient if you have emailed me with questions. It'll take a few days but I will answer them all.

Greets
Markus

www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_and_Rai.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_back.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas2.jpg
www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas3.jpg

Régine Weinberg · December 13th, 2004, 07:50 AM

Wow that is a very big cam

I could not come Leipzig is about 2000 Km and Airfrance to Paris way expensive from Paris it will be cheap but trains are on same sort of strike so no way to go to Paris

have fun

Gary McClurg · December 13th, 2004, 08:10 AM

I would prefer the camera be black. Maybe because that's the color of most cameras.

I've found on some shoots that some actors freak out when they don't see something that looks normal to them. Even though they have no clue in heck what goes on behind the camera.

Wayne Morellini · December 13th, 2004, 09:24 AM

My comments exactly. It is a bit dark to see, but we see Ria, finally ;). I was going to say being big is allright as long as it's light, but boy that is big. After seeing the picture, I would say throw in some nice pro curves, and rounded edges. If it looks as good, or better than any modern PRO ENG camera, you should do alright, once the extra controls are on there will look good.

Are you planning on using the same case for upgrades?

Re-edit

Hold it, there is a game controller on the top of that, is this what I think it is?

Richard Mellor · December 13th, 2004, 09:31 AM

looks good rai and markus. do you have a estimated price for this yet

Christian Schmitt · December 13th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Guys,

there it is, the first DIY HDcam! And what are the first comments:
Hm, it's big, can I have mine in black with some rounded edges?
And where was that post saying: "FEB, i thought i could buy it for x-mas!!!" Guys! Come on! I just thought: why the hell wasn't I in Leibzig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rai and Markus: Hut ab und herzlichen Glückwunsch!

Anyone wondering why they wait till 2005 with the release besides manufacturing issues, here are my 2c:

What would be better for promoting your new HDcam than a 5 minute preview of a LOTR style(?) movie shot with it?
And how the news will talk about a movie, someone especially built a camera for...

Someone has big plans here, someone who couldn't care less about his camera looking PRO ENG, no offence Wayne...

Rai and Markus, so far you kept your promisses, guess we'll have a price for the drake tomorrow...?

btw, can you play Doom on that viewfinder during light changes;-)

December 1st, 2004, 07:24 AM	#107
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Re: news <<<-- Originally posted by Markus Rupprecht : By the way, we think about showing up at Sundance in January. We check if we can organize and afford it. If yes this would be a opportunity for the U.S. folks to dance with a drake. We'll see. Greets Markus -->>> As your showing German technology and innovation with a first "wonder" camera, maybe you can apply to government trade agency, or film agency, or research and developement agency, for a grant to take and show off your camera at Sundance (good business). Maybe you can also even get a grant to come to the Australian "Cairns" film festival, and I can drive down the road and see you ;). Im dissapionted the IBIS5A doesn't have the extra colour and light pickup, are they ever going to improve that chip? Wayne.

December 13th, 2004, 03:13 AM	#111
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	and no news ??? Today 13th of december on http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/ nothing about Drake a page with no no no information no forum about this hot future indie cam !!! Quote ----------------------------------------------------- To everybody from Germany or at least central europe: On december 10. we will introduce our drake system to the public at a filmmaker congress in Halle (near Leipzig). Check out their webpage for details (in german) http://www.filmnachwuchs.net/ We will show our baby with a decent beamer in live operation and also show the color graded material and will show up with the team to answer questions and give everybody the opportunity to try the camera out. ___________________________________ as it is German nothing on slashcam or hackermovies so what is going on ??

December 13th, 2004, 09:31 AM	#119
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	varicam killer looks good rai and markus. do you have a estimated price for this yet

November 30th, 2004, 10:54 AM	#106
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Some inside details about DRAKE´s bit depth: 12, 10 or 8 Bit? 1.) DRAKE have build in white balance. (If you capture without white balance, you must corrected it in post. But this cost up to 2Bits) 2.) We use a (programmable) lookup table to reduce the white balanced pictures from 10 Bits to 8Bits. At the end, we write 8Bit to harddisk, but with mutch more informations. We can also say, DRAKE captured with 10or12Bit, its just a way of compression.

December 8th, 2004, 10:19 AM	#108
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	Wasn't the web site suppose to be up today. Just wondering what the link to it is? Thanks

December 13th, 2004, 02:33 AM	#109
Christian Schmitt Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 59	Did i just hear an HO HO HO...? Maybe HD-Santa is coming by soon, I mean only, if we have been good kids, have you guys? My wish for this year: A small camera that makes biiiiiiiiiig pictures ;o]

December 13th, 2004, 03:11 AM	#110
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	That's what I thought, but all I can find is the complete presentation being on the 14th. By the way Rai, over the other thread it looks like Sumix is using a new version of the IBIS5 with supposedly big improvements. Any plans to use a new version of the chip on the Drake if it becomes available?

December 13th, 2004, 03:38 AM	#112
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Yes, I remember that, the date give in the thread here was the 14th for the presentation, so I don't know.

December 13th, 2004, 04:15 AM	#113
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : Short news about DRAKE: Timeline for presentation the whole system will be the 12.14.2004. -->>> This will be tomorrow... Please let me clear some things: People on dvinfo talk since long time about (home made) hd-cameras. Long time ago, some guys said: "We will have THE best solution, just wait for tomorrow..." Also long time ago, they said, altasens will be the best chip and it came out next mounth. This was in june, in september again and now they talk about march... BTW: Who saw a motion picture from a altasens chip with a fast wide angle cine lens in front of it? Remember, altasens will have only rolling shutter and microlenses. Two very bad things for cinema. In the meantime DRAKE work. But dont forget: A camera head + storage solution is just one part of the way. Long time ago some people talk about costs of complete systems. Take just a look a www.chrosziel.com and add the prices of support rig + 16:9 mattebox + follow focus system. Round $ 5000,- only for that? Now, i can say: Drake will have also all those parts include. Since friday we have a first 35mm blow up. Amazing! Cine grade post software is also available. Ser. production (mechanical parts) start this week, so DRAKE will be available in Feb. 2005. Future points: We work on differnt chip solutions. (also 3 chips for best colors) up to full optical 35mm size. Upgrade options. @Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future. @Ronald: I saw you not there, why? It was a good live forum, not a internet forum. Slashcam is a forum for dv user, not for cine. But you will find informations on hackermovies and others, just wait.

December 13th, 2004, 05:08 AM	#114
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The rolling shutter on the altasens is so fast as to be a non isue. I think microslense are good (for gathering extra light) but I also want to use very very fast lense system :(. One of my ideas I am to be working on can also get past the microlense problem and make it a complete solution (don't ask still o be investigated, conract only). I have links to building your own equipment (D.I.Y) sites, so all these things canbe done for less than 10th, or less, of price of cinema equipment. So for bottom budget equipment only the camera/capture systems matters, along with edit system, if cinerella can't be used. I have seen some amazing stuff done for hundreds of dollers + equipment, so equipment costs matters a lot at this level. The only unaviodable part (for now) is film transfer, marketing and distribution, but if I have something really good I should be able to convinve somebody to invest, or distributor, otherwise talk to video market. So I am looking for cheap*good camera. FEB is a longtime too, I hought it would be in production this mointh? <<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : @Wayne: You know, i wrote you also the 3 ibis chip idea in the past, because the ibis5 MONO version is a low light sensation. We talk about this direct with cypress (fillfactory), they know what we made with drake and what we will made in the future. -->>> I remember speaking about the IBIS, but not any thing about the IBIS5 mono being a low light sensation, or even a three chip version of it. For my piece of mind, is there a newer version than the IBIS5A, and how is it better in M version than what we have seen. Is the FEB release because of a newer version? I have seen their technology page, and not all features are in the IBIS5 yet, the intergrated memory thing would significantly increase global/rolling shutter light pickup. There was something about gain or lattitude as well, that would make the IBIS5 a good chip to work with. Still I have tried to calculate their values using the maximun "-e" cell satutation value as the basis of the calculation and I think the niose issues need to be significantly improved, because if my calculations are correct there will be 4 bits of niose range at 36db gain on an 8bit image (that doesn't quiet sound right maybe I have got my figures mixed up) pluss some other things like dark current etc. So for low light work it will probably be a lot more niosy than Altasens, in normal optimal lighting with 0 gain I think there would be niose in the lowest bit of 10 bits. But fix pattern niose is .5% which should mean that at least the lowest bit of 8 bit should be affected. Am I reading these specs right, or is the situation a lo better? I wait tommorrow with baited breath, it doesn't matter too much which camera I buy, as long as it suites me.

December 13th, 2004, 05:20 AM	#115
Markus Rupprecht Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: germany Posts: 31	Hey folks, Don't blame us for not making it our first priority to update this forum. We have a simple motto: work first, talk later. Everybody had the chance to show up in Leipzig. Some did and we hat a great time there, doing real time color correction, showing the material on a big HDTV beamer and playing around with the 35mm print. For everybody who couldn't come, here are some Drake pictures, showing the prototype. The final case will be ready in January, be titanium and dark blue, everything else will look rather identical. What you can't see is the focus pulling device, it's currently being prepared for the big shooting in 4 days. And the handles are missing, so I uploaded the 3D concept images, where you can see them. The big screen is detachable and can be mounted on a tripod or whatever. New job for the camera assistant, to see where the best position for the screen is for each shot. Expect some interesting video clips about the usage of the camera on set in early january and please be patient if you have emailed me with questions. It'll take a few days but I will answer them all. Greets Markus www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake.jpg www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_and_Rai.jpg www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_back.jpg www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas2.jpg www.drachenfeder.com/int/Drake_Glas3.jpg

December 13th, 2004, 07:50 AM	#116
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	Wow that is a very big cam I could not come Leipzig is about 2000 Km and Airfrance to Paris way expensive from Paris it will be cheap but trains are on same sort of strike so no way to go to Paris have fun

December 13th, 2004, 08:10 AM	#117
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	I would prefer the camera be black. Maybe because that's the color of most cameras. I've found on some shoots that some actors freak out when they don't see something that looks normal to them. Even though they have no clue in heck what goes on behind the camera.

December 13th, 2004, 09:24 AM	#118
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	My comments exactly. It is a bit dark to see, but we see Ria, finally ;). I was going to say being big is allright as long as it's light, but boy that is big. After seeing the picture, I would say throw in some nice pro curves, and rounded edges. If it looks as good, or better than any modern PRO ENG camera, you should do alright, once the extra controls are on there will look good. Are you planning on using the same case for upgrades? Re-edit Hold it, there is a game controller on the top of that, is this what I think it is?

December 13th, 2004, 11:42 AM	#120
Christian Schmitt Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 59	Guys, there it is, the first DIY HDcam! And what are the first comments: Hm, it's big, can I have mine in black with some rounded edges? And where was that post saying: "FEB, i thought i could buy it for x-mas!!!" Guys! Come on! I just thought: why the hell wasn't I in Leibzig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rai and Markus: Hut ab und herzlichen Glückwunsch! Anyone wondering why they wait till 2005 with the release besides manufacturing issues, here are my 2c: What would be better for promoting your new HDcam than a 5 minute preview of a LOTR style(?) movie shot with it? And how the news will talk about a movie, someone especially built a camera for... Someone has big plans here, someone who couldn't care less about his camera looking PRO ENG, no offence Wayne... Rai and Markus, so far you kept your promisses, guess we'll have a price for the drake tomorrow...? btw, can you play Doom on that viewfinder during light changes;-)