Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera

Frank Schoerner · October 25th, 2005, 05:46 AM

@ Kitaev
It is nice to see you here. I hope you can answers this main question about the sensor:
- What is the optical dimension of the sensor. We all need the exact size in mm x mm. (Please not only the round 1" diagonal)
- What is the exact size of one single pixel in ym
- What is the max res. in pixel x pixels (the sensor, not the camera output)
- Is it a 4:3 or a 16:9 Sensor
- Is it possible to get out 12 Bit
- What is the max. frame rate per second with max. sensor res.
- What is the max. frame rate at 1920p, or 720p

We understand your camera can run also at higer speed, but with lower res.
- Use the sensor for high speed (and low res.) a smaller optical size (a little window, so the view of range is different) or use the sensor in all cases the max sensor size

Last question: What do you mean with a optical converter ?
Thanks

Obin Olson · October 25th, 2005, 06:23 AM

Is your chip APS sized? or smaller..you said 20% crop, is this with PHOTO lens or with 35mm cine lens? Photo 35mm is much larger then cine 35mm...

yes I would like to see a shot with a 50mm ..what type of lens mount do you have?

can you use OLED for a viewfinder? how is the resolution on your current viewfinder...problem is when your outside in brihgt sunlight a LCD is usless..I hate to say it but it's true. I have shot like that and had WORTHLESS footage from not knowing what I am shooting due to the sunlight hitting the LCD. We NEED a viewfinder for a real product

Serge Victorovich · October 25th, 2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obin Olson

...
can you use OLED for a viewfinder? how is the resolution on your current viewfinder...problem is when your outside in brihgt sunlight a LCD is usless..I hate to say it but it's true. I have shot like that and had WORTHLESS footage from not knowing what I am shooting due to the sunlight hitting the LCD. We NEED a viewfinder for a real product

Obin, look at eMagin Z800 OLED product:
http://www.emagin.com/html/consumer_...ts_product.htm

Obin Olson · October 25th, 2005, 08:32 AM

I have seen that product, can you use it? its only $800, but it's 3d...how can your camera hook up?

also your images look nice, I see a really low quality bayer, are you using linbayer?

what about static pixel noise? looks like you have some of that, can you filter it out??

Levan Bakhia · October 25th, 2005, 01:29 PM

Hi all, Hi Alexander, glad to see you here and glad to see this questions I would never know to ask. :*)

Alexander, No problem with the delay, of course I don't need the camera that is not tested and is working properly, I'd rather wait. The only thing is that I realy have a need for the camera and sooner I have more cost effective it is for me. I also hope that me being so intended for your camera makes you also more up to finalize it sooner, and I am also a good feedback to make your product finer and hopefully comments of this great people in this forum will also help you. I honestly wish you success and there is a great market worldwide, for your product if you make it good. At least I know for sure that you will have about 5 of them potentially sold in Georgia, that is only companies I know of. But also there is a point of beeing late on the market, the first one to make a good camera will be successfull.

I agree with Obin, viewfinder is an important factor and to tell you the truth I prefer to have a very similar to normal viewfinder. As with camera I would prefer it to be very like the film camera, same with the viewfinder, but this is not the crutial thou.

"50mm lens shot of a person with a light on them..." is also very interesting.

To sum all of this, I hope I will have the camera ASAP, I am ready to buy one or even two, shortly, and I don't know technical discussion of the chip and other things, I can tell how good it is in Real World, the bottom line is when I do the real shoot of the commercial and get the result, that will be the best way to evaluate it.

Levan Bakhia · October 25th, 2005, 01:43 PM

www.ctt.ru/files/demo/supermotion_rugby.rar

White color is clipping too much I think. But there are colors to the picture, that is good. And also it seems a bit out of focus. Well actually I think it might be what Alexander said about the focusing.

Comments

Régine Weinberg · October 25th, 2005, 03:27 PM

http://www.illunis.com/
and there
XMV2001 and XMV 2020

Specs at a Glance:
Active Pixels: 1600 x 1200
Pixel Clock: 40 Mhz
Pixel Size: 7.4um x 7.4um
Sensor: KAI-2001, KAI-2020
Frame Rate: 33.6 Fps (Dual Tap) 18.3 Fps (Single Tap)
Bit Depth: User selectable 8, 10 or 12
Dynamic Range: 55dB
Power: 12VDC - 4.7Watts
Interface: Camera Link Base Mode
Dimensions: 37 x 57 x 57mm

http://www.illunis.com/Files/XMV-2M.pdf

well it is cameralink
but there are boards like the expresso and so on
not knowing what's wrong,
maybe the price,
it's Kodak CCD
I do know the imager very well
did know that's a lot of work to do
they've done
so what ?

Alexander Kitaev · October 26th, 2005, 03:51 AM

Hi ALL,
first- about sensor, it has 4M, 16x12mm, 6,9pixel, 2400x1700 it’s CUSTOM sensor, real 10bit,
max speed –1GB/sec- it’s about 350fps on HD resolution, or ~800 on SD
it’s first use in space, but now we try to make cinecamera…
(our next one will be with 12M resolution, 12-14 bits, but 2-3 years later…)
about other sensors- we tested ALL of them- all have motion bugs on rolling shutter (if it has speed less then 120fps) or problems with noise or sensitive.

About viewfinder- You are all right, small one is good too, but for use our 8” monitor- you also have some reasons- first- more detail on more size and more resolution-we have real 1024x768
monitor, on HD you may se ½ picture without any artifacts, as well , max resolution of 0.8” OLED display- 800x600 with resizing you will have a lot of bugs on screen, (we tested same device - http://www.i-glassesstore.com/) looks not good, but if you want- no problem: special order- 3 month. and if you want to work on sun- use http://www.hoodmanusa.com/H789.asp .

about our bugs: we have real bug with “focus” – it’s not real focus problems- its bugs of linear demosaic-we use it for viewfinder on high speed – this project was for Super slow motion broadcast camera,
and we tested it with SONY cameras –(that’s we have such colors)
- now we testing new soft, and I think to show new pictures later this week.

and last- we work on this project more than 6 years, this is 4’th generation of “low cost” camera.
fist time we show our prototype on NAB2000 as HIMT inc USA,
and of course, after 6 years I may say- this is NOT easy- we have a large team and work for 6 years-
I may say – if You want to make you own camera- welcome, but you need large team, science support and a lot of investments,

Best regards,

Alexander Kitaev

www.ctt.ru
info@ctt.ru
kit@1tv.ru

Levan Bakhia · October 26th, 2005, 11:10 AM

This is my new TV commercial for one of the construction companies in the city. Never mind what the idea is, it needs to be translated. Just look at the picture and slow motion effect.

I shot it with Photron camera, I meet with the company in Las Vegas. It records up to 4000fps. www.photron.com

It is black and white and only yellow color is left on purpose. It needs some final color correction thou. It is compressed thou, later I will upload an uncompressed version.

www.pepsi.ge/axis/axis.zip

What do you think?

Wayne Morellini · October 26th, 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Kitaev

I may say – if You want to make you own camera- welcome, but you need large team, science support and a lot of investments,

Best regards,

Alexander Kitaev

Yes, doing a complete camera is pointless without that. That's why we were trying to get a custom version from Sumix, or customise an existing camera ourselves.

Thanks

Wayne.

Bill Porter · October 27th, 2005, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia

This is my new TV commercial for one of the construction companies in the city. Never mind what the idea is, it needs to be translated. Just look at the picture and slow motion effect.

I shot it with Photron camera, I meet with the company in Las Vegas. It records up to 4000fps. www.photron.com

It is black and white and only yellow color is left on purpose. It needs some final color correction thou. It is compressed thou, later I will upload an uncompressed version.

www.pepsi.ge/axis/axis.zip

What do you think?

I really liked it! Very nice job. Did you buy or rent the Photron? Which model was it? And how much did you slow the footage down by?

Obin Olson · October 27th, 2005, 06:31 AM

Great work...what was your budget on that? looks really good....

Kurt August · October 27th, 2005, 06:57 AM

It looks indeed very nice. I looked at their site a long time ago. But it was mostly low res stuff.

Is it a big setup?
Is it flexible?

Would you have the kindness to post a behind the scenes picture?

Levan Bakhia · October 30th, 2005, 02:55 AM

No, I rented it didn't buy. The total budget for the commercial was around 14000 USD. Well, in most scenes you see 1000fps or 2000fps, except for the first shot of the ball, it is 4000fps. It is not very flexible but you can do the job. Actually it is a camera head, connected to a box with all the processing power and the memory and 2 cables between is around 10meters long. Since you can not move the camera during the shot (pan, tilt or anything) it is flexible, because you only need to setup the shot and then not touch the camera. When I say you can not move it, I mean you can but if you do, even a very smooth movement (if it is not a motion controled) will look very unsmooth when played in slow motion. So basicly if you consider this fact, it is very flexible.

The camera is Ultima APX and the guy I rented it from said that this one is much better than newer versions of APX, like APX-RS.

Right now I am away, when I am back I will post the behind the scene pictures. That will be in 10 days.

Emanuel Costa · November 7th, 2005, 02:50 AM

Congrats Levan! Any up-date of your ctt.ru camera experience?

October 25th, 2005, 03:27 PM	#367
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	found that maybe vented a zillion times but !!!!!! http://www.illunis.com/ and there XMV2001 and XMV 2020 Specs at a Glance: Active Pixels: 1600 x 1200 Pixel Clock: 40 Mhz Pixel Size: 7.4um x 7.4um Sensor: KAI-2001, KAI-2020 Frame Rate: 33.6 Fps (Dual Tap) 18.3 Fps (Single Tap) Bit Depth: User selectable 8, 10 or 12 Dynamic Range: 55dB Power: 12VDC - 4.7Watts Interface: Camera Link Base Mode Dimensions: 37 x 57 x 57mm http://www.illunis.com/Files/XMV-2M.pdf well it is cameralink but there are boards like the expresso and so on not knowing what's wrong, maybe the price, it's Kodak CCD I do know the imager very well did know that's a lot of work to do they've done so what ?

October 26th, 2005, 11:10 AM	#369
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	Slow Motion - Seeking your opinions This is my new TV commercial for one of the construction companies in the city. Never mind what the idea is, it needs to be translated. Just look at the picture and slow motion effect. I shot it with Photron camera, I meet with the company in Las Vegas. It records up to 4000fps. www.photron.com It is black and white and only yellow color is left on purpose. It needs some final color correction thou. It is compressed thou, later I will upload an uncompressed version. www.pepsi.ge/axis/axis.zip What do you think?

October 27th, 2005, 06:57 AM	#373
Kurt August Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 94	4000fps It looks indeed very nice. I looked at their site a long time ago. But it was mostly low res stuff. Is it a big setup? Is it flexible? Would you have the kindness to post a behind the scenes picture?

October 25th, 2005, 05:46 AM	#361
Frank Schoerner New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	@ Kitaev It is nice to see you here. I hope you can answers this main question about the sensor: - What is the optical dimension of the sensor. We all need the exact size in mm x mm. (Please not only the round 1" diagonal) - What is the exact size of one single pixel in ym - What is the max res. in pixel x pixels (the sensor, not the camera output) - Is it a 4:3 or a 16:9 Sensor - Is it possible to get out 12 Bit - What is the max. frame rate per second with max. sensor res. - What is the max. frame rate at 1920p, or 720p We understand your camera can run also at higer speed, but with lower res. - Use the sensor for high speed (and low res.) a smaller optical size (a little window, so the view of range is different) or use the sensor in all cases the max sensor size Last question: What do you mean with a optical converter ? Thanks

October 25th, 2005, 06:23 AM	#362
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Is your chip APS sized? or smaller..you said 20% crop, is this with PHOTO lens or with 35mm cine lens? Photo 35mm is much larger then cine 35mm... yes I would like to see a shot with a 50mm ..what type of lens mount do you have? can you use OLED for a viewfinder? how is the resolution on your current viewfinder...problem is when your outside in brihgt sunlight a LCD is usless..I hate to say it but it's true. I have shot like that and had WORTHLESS footage from not knowing what I am shooting due to the sunlight hitting the LCD. We NEED a viewfinder for a real product

October 25th, 2005, 08:32 AM	#364
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I have seen that product, can you use it? its only $800, but it's 3d...how can your camera hook up? also your images look nice, I see a really low quality bayer, are you using linbayer? what about static pixel noise? looks like you have some of that, can you filter it out??

October 25th, 2005, 01:29 PM	#365
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	Hi all, Hi Alexander, glad to see you here and glad to see this questions I would never know to ask. :*) Alexander, No problem with the delay, of course I don't need the camera that is not tested and is working properly, I'd rather wait. The only thing is that I realy have a need for the camera and sooner I have more cost effective it is for me. I also hope that me being so intended for your camera makes you also more up to finalize it sooner, and I am also a good feedback to make your product finer and hopefully comments of this great people in this forum will also help you. I honestly wish you success and there is a great market worldwide, for your product if you make it good. At least I know for sure that you will have about 5 of them potentially sold in Georgia, that is only companies I know of. But also there is a point of beeing late on the market, the first one to make a good camera will be successfull. I agree with Obin, viewfinder is an important factor and to tell you the truth I prefer to have a very similar to normal viewfinder. As with camera I would prefer it to be very like the film camera, same with the viewfinder, but this is not the crutial thou. "50mm lens shot of a person with a light on them..." is also very interesting. To sum all of this, I hope I will have the camera ASAP, I am ready to buy one or even two, shortly, and I don't know technical discussion of the chip and other things, I can tell how good it is in Real World, the bottom line is when I do the real shoot of the commercial and get the result, that will be the best way to evaluate it.

October 25th, 2005, 01:43 PM	#366
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	www.ctt.ru/files/demo/supermotion_rugby.rar White color is clipping too much I think. But there are colors to the picture, that is good. And also it seems a bit out of focus. Well actually I think it might be what Alexander said about the focusing. Comments

October 26th, 2005, 03:51 AM	#368
Alexander Kitaev New Boot Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Moscow Russia Posts: 6	Hi ALL, first- about sensor, it has 4M, 16x12mm, 6,9pixel, 2400x1700 it’s CUSTOM sensor, real 10bit, max speed –1GB/sec- it’s about 350fps on HD resolution, or ~800 on SD it’s first use in space, but now we try to make cinecamera… (our next one will be with 12M resolution, 12-14 bits, but 2-3 years later…) about other sensors- we tested ALL of them- all have motion bugs on rolling shutter (if it has speed less then 120fps) or problems with noise or sensitive. About viewfinder- You are all right, small one is good too, but for use our 8” monitor- you also have some reasons- first- more detail on more size and more resolution-we have real 1024x768 monitor, on HD you may se ½ picture without any artifacts, as well , max resolution of 0.8” OLED display- 800x600 with resizing you will have a lot of bugs on screen, (we tested same device - http://www.i-glassesstore.com/) looks not good, but if you want- no problem: special order- 3 month. and if you want to work on sun- use http://www.hoodmanusa.com/H789.asp . about our bugs: we have real bug with “focus” – it’s not real focus problems- its bugs of linear demosaic-we use it for viewfinder on high speed – this project was for Super slow motion broadcast camera, and we tested it with SONY cameras –(that’s we have such colors) - now we testing new soft, and I think to show new pictures later this week. and last- we work on this project more than 6 years, this is 4’th generation of “low cost” camera. fist time we show our prototype on NAB2000 as HIMT inc USA, and of course, after 6 years I may say- this is NOT easy- we have a large team and work for 6 years- I may say – if You want to make you own camera- welcome, but you need large team, science support and a lot of investments, Best regards, Alexander Kitaev www.ctt.ru info@ctt.ru kit@1tv.ru

October 27th, 2005, 06:31 AM	#372
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Great work...what was your budget on that? looks really good....

October 30th, 2005, 02:55 AM	#374
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	No, I rented it didn't buy. The total budget for the commercial was around 14000 USD. Well, in most scenes you see 1000fps or 2000fps, except for the first shot of the ball, it is 4000fps. It is not very flexible but you can do the job. Actually it is a camera head, connected to a box with all the processing power and the memory and 2 cables between is around 10meters long. Since you can not move the camera during the shot (pan, tilt or anything) it is flexible, because you only need to setup the shot and then not touch the camera. When I say you can not move it, I mean you can but if you do, even a very smooth movement (if it is not a motion controled) will look very unsmooth when played in slow motion. So basicly if you consider this fact, it is very flexible. The camera is Ultima APX and the guy I rented it from said that this one is much better than newer versions of APX, like APX-RS. Right now I am away, when I am back I will post the behind the scene pictures. That will be in 10 days.

November 7th, 2005, 02:50 AM	#375
Emanuel Costa Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 31	Congrats Levan! Any up-date of your ctt.ru camera experience?