Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera

Wayne Morellini · October 1st, 2005, 06:51 AM

Noah, I think one of the Pana GS models uses 1/3 rd pixel shift to get it's highest native resolution, which is extreme (upscaled modes above this would be worse and the 4:1:1, 4:2:0 colour not so good) but I see with the right software routine you should be able to nearly completely correct chroma/resolution much better than Bayer per file size, due to the predictability of images. But trying to correct chroma abbreviations from cheap prisms might be tougher. I think pixel shift is great for really cheap cameras, for when Foveon X3 ever becomes available in the segment (no prism, F1.0). Most of the work in doing the 3 chip prism is figuring out a cheap procedure to do it in the first place after wards it should be much easier for others to copy. I have my own ideas for a cheap alternative to prisms to. With a security feed I would look at collecting 3 video feeds into a security capture card and recording uncompressed or low compression (this is the hard part, I imagine there isn't a card that can do this and an expensive card would need to be sued instead).

Levan Bakhia · October 3rd, 2005, 04:49 AM

@Frank

camera is CMOS 21mm diagonal sensor, 4/5" (technology limitations...)
So, it have some 20% zoom effect with 35 mm lens, and about 30% on HD1920x1080 picture. next chip will be real 35mm. I don't know what sensor it is, they told me it is the same sensor as in D20, but smaller one.

Please let me know when you meet with DRAKE team.

Levan Bakhia · October 13th, 2005, 12:16 PM

Here is the link you can download a shot with russian camera. It is in fast mode, in SD ucompressed raw image, no color correction. Tomorrow I will do some color correction to it and upload one with color correction and in normal speed also.

Waiting for your comment.

www.ctt.ru/files/demo/fast_dog.rar

Omar Saad · October 15th, 2005, 04:25 PM

Thanks for the upload Levan. It looks good. Did you get a chance to do any color correction yet? What is the frame rate on this shot? Can't wait to see what hd looks like on this. Any chance that you can post a 720p image? Is it the altsens chip in this camera?

Levan Bakhia · October 16th, 2005, 09:52 AM

I think it is 250fps. I don't know what chip it uses, but I don't thinks it is altasens, since this camera has 1' chip and I don't know if altasens has 1' sensor at all. on 24th of this month I will have this camera (I purchased one) and I will shoot 3 TV ads. Untill now I am shooting usually on 35mm and I hope to get results very close to 35mm. I will post finished TV commercials in HD format 1080p when I am finished, I will also post some shots I will make with it.

Unfotunatelly I couldn't do any color correction, since I am sitting with high fever at home :*(, but tomorrow I will go to studio and do some grading on Final Touch, and hope to achieve some nice results.

Régine Weinberg · October 16th, 2005, 10:21 AM

normally I never do this,
posting a link in different threats
but I guess it could kill cameralink
Imaging a camerahead some FGPA with embedded Linux
up to 4 firewire voila
http://heroinewarrior.com/firehose.php3

Régine Weinberg · October 16th, 2005, 11:07 AM

Well Kinetta is mostly working on His camera for his need, it is Altasens and a fine piece of art. Drake there are no news, they are in a price league where they need real marketing forces , chanels and skills, wondering if they have them, being technically top is another cup of tea, sadly.

The russian camera is in a price range... same story.
Sumix no news ever sadly.
Realstream not bad and with a mini 35 look a like even better, I do guess.

A lot off HD consumer cams are arriving, all with shortcommings, recording media, imager size, compression only to name few plus low light short commings, optics etc.

What do we need.

All we know worked with 35 mm and S16 we do not need all the menues, and buttons to be found today, a variable speedrange like Kinetta is not bad and has been on 35mm and 16 as well. Standart Optics and for the dammed Film look, either some mini 35 or to accept that a total different technique has it's own look.

How can we make Sumix speak ??
And it has to be to disk, as disk-array, like kineta is doing, is cheap
and can be a mechanical take away cartridge, no download time with a laptop running some editing package, instant picture!!

Could be the digital S16 for a lot of people and if it does 1080i ok!!

Omar Saad · October 16th, 2005, 11:11 AM

Levan, I can't wait to see the HD clips. You are editing on a dual g5 right? Have you found a way to optimize it to handle 1080p raw footage? How good does it handle editing HD? Hope your comercial shoots go well. Get well.

Omar Saad · October 16th, 2005, 11:27 AM

Ronald, firehose sounds interesting....is this a software solution that allows you to tie together multiple connections to transfer the different parts of the same information? Would one set it up with multiple firewire conections coming off the same camera say? Sorry for the ignorance, I am still learning the intracasies of the type of specialized computer knowledge we need to make projects like these happen.

thanks,
Omar

Levan Bakhia · October 16th, 2005, 12:15 PM

Omar,

Yes I am on dual G5 2,7, with XT800 and deckling HD pro, and HUGE system raid capable of speed 210+. And you know what? Final Cut is not good at all with uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p. Not at all. It need render all the time, and I am so unhappy with that. Well, Final Cut itself is a great tool, but they advertise everywhere that it is capable of Real Time uncompressed HD, but it is NOT. So I am working with it anyways, because all my jobs are on film and most of them are finally trasfered back to film, so I have no other option, I have to wait to render, it doesn't take a long time to render either, but it is that why the hell they advertise like that. And when I call them they tell me it should. That is funny.

Since you asked, do you have similar problem?

Omar Saad · October 16th, 2005, 09:49 PM

@Levan
Actually I do not have my set up yet. I have been doing a lot of reading and was on the verge of buying a dual g5 2.7ghz system, however after some research it seem that the amd dual opteron pc is maybe the better way to go. You can drop twice the ram (16gb) and in a head to head test with the dual g5 2.7 running aftereffects for various types or rendering it came out ahead or equal in almost every task. I am bummed out. I have been a long time pc user and have always run into problems over the years with them. My cousin is an audio engineer and has sold me on the idea of using a mac for my next project, as they are never seem to have the same problems and errors, viruses, etc. that pc does....but now with what I have read and with you have said I am not so sure about mac. I wonder what others have experienced with them on this board? Anyhow good luck with the commercial shoots and I cant wait to see some of the 1080p footage!

@ Frank
have you met with the Drake team yet? How did it go, do they have a working 1080p camera yet....ready to sell?

Kurt August · October 17th, 2005, 04:59 AM

I would beg you to wait until Wednesday 19 October. I'm not saying you should buy mac, but when quad G5 is released, perhaps the math changes.

I'm not saying they will be released, I just read the news and know there's a big press conference "to unveil Apple's latest pro innovations" coming wednesday at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC.

Ok. I admit! I am still very happy with my dual 2.5... There. Now you now it.

Wayne Morellini · October 17th, 2005, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Biese

How can we make Sumix speak ??

Does anybody have their direct number to the group inside Sumix (Hungary I think) to ring. I don't normally don't do this, I prefer to leave them alone to get on with the work, but I think this is just too ridiculous. Something is wrong, it doesn't normally take that long to get a basic system out. Even if they are waiting for the Altasens to reach full production they could have used the system with the IBIS/Micron cameras in the meantime.

That Opteron motherboard looks nice, Multiple Gige, PCI-E and Express card (for future DX10 GPU processing cards). Now all it needs is, MacOSX, and firewire B or C.

Wayne Morellini · October 17th, 2005, 07:00 AM

Finally, cheap progressive HD alternative to HD1!

I have just found this link to the next hard drive based JVC Everio HD camera in the news section. The quick and the dead, how do these sort of releases effect peoples decisions on the cameras here, presuming it comes with uncompressed component out? Maybe we can expect more cameras from other manufacturers soon.

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

Régine Weinberg · October 18th, 2005, 10:42 AM

http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT3888835064.html

and 1280 x 1024 @ 30fps
could be cheap pumps out on Ethernet

October 13th, 2005, 12:16 PM	#333
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	Shot with russian cam Here is the link you can download a shot with russian camera. It is in fast mode, in SD ucompressed raw image, no color correction. Tomorrow I will do some color correction to it and upload one with color correction and in normal speed also. Waiting for your comment. www.ctt.ru/files/demo/fast_dog.rar

October 16th, 2005, 09:52 AM	#335
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	@Omar I think it is 250fps. I don't know what chip it uses, but I don't thinks it is altasens, since this camera has 1' chip and I don't know if altasens has 1' sensor at all. on 24th of this month I will have this camera (I purchased one) and I will shoot 3 TV ads. Untill now I am shooting usually on 35mm and I hope to get results very close to 35mm. I will post finished TV commercials in HD format 1080p when I am finished, I will also post some shots I will make with it. Unfotunatelly I couldn't do any color correction, since I am sitting with high fever at home :*(, but tomorrow I will go to studio and do some grading on Final Touch, and hope to achieve some nice results.

October 16th, 2005, 10:21 AM	#336
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	sorry but could this kill cameralink ? normally I never do this, posting a link in different threats but I guess it could kill cameralink Imaging a camerahead some FGPA with embedded Linux up to 4 firewire voila http://heroinewarrior.com/firehose.php3

October 16th, 2005, 11:07 AM	#337
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	reading and reading Well Kinetta is mostly working on His camera for his need, it is Altasens and a fine piece of art. Drake there are no news, they are in a price league where they need real marketing forces , chanels and skills, wondering if they have them, being technically top is another cup of tea, sadly. The russian camera is in a price range... same story. Sumix no news ever sadly. Realstream not bad and with a mini 35 look a like even better, I do guess. A lot off HD consumer cams are arriving, all with shortcommings, recording media, imager size, compression only to name few plus low light short commings, optics etc. What do we need. All we know worked with 35 mm and S16 we do not need all the menues, and buttons to be found today, a variable speedrange like Kinetta is not bad and has been on 35mm and 16 as well. Standart Optics and for the dammed Film look, either some mini 35 or to accept that a total different technique has it's own look. How can we make Sumix speak ?? And it has to be to disk, as disk-array, like kineta is doing, is cheap and can be a mechanical take away cartridge, no download time with a laptop running some editing package, instant picture!! Could be the digital S16 for a lot of people and if it does 1080i ok!!

October 17th, 2005, 04:59 AM	#342
Kurt August Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 94	Computations I would beg you to wait until Wednesday 19 October. I'm not saying you should buy mac, but when quad G5 is released, perhaps the math changes. I'm not saying they will be released, I just read the news and know there's a big press conference "to unveil Apple's latest pro innovations" coming wednesday at the PhotoPlus Expo in NYC. Ok. I admit! I am still very happy with my dual 2.5... There. Now you now it.

October 1st, 2005, 06:51 AM	#331
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Noah, I think one of the Pana GS models uses 1/3 rd pixel shift to get it's highest native resolution, which is extreme (upscaled modes above this would be worse and the 4:1:1, 4:2:0 colour not so good) but I see with the right software routine you should be able to nearly completely correct chroma/resolution much better than Bayer per file size, due to the predictability of images. But trying to correct chroma abbreviations from cheap prisms might be tougher. I think pixel shift is great for really cheap cameras, for when Foveon X3 ever becomes available in the segment (no prism, F1.0). Most of the work in doing the 3 chip prism is figuring out a cheap procedure to do it in the first place after wards it should be much easier for others to copy. I have my own ideas for a cheap alternative to prisms to. With a security feed I would look at collecting 3 video feeds into a security capture card and recording uncompressed or low compression (this is the hard part, I imagine there isn't a card that can do this and an expensive card would need to be sued instead).

October 3rd, 2005, 04:49 AM	#332
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	@Frank camera is CMOS 21mm diagonal sensor, 4/5" (technology limitations...) So, it have some 20% zoom effect with 35 mm lens, and about 30% on HD1920x1080 picture. next chip will be real 35mm. I don't know what sensor it is, they told me it is the same sensor as in D20, but smaller one. Please let me know when you meet with DRAKE team.

October 15th, 2005, 04:25 PM	#334
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Thanks for the upload Levan. It looks good. Did you get a chance to do any color correction yet? What is the frame rate on this shot? Can't wait to see what hd looks like on this. Any chance that you can post a 720p image? Is it the altsens chip in this camera?

October 16th, 2005, 11:11 AM	#338
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Levan, I can't wait to see the HD clips. You are editing on a dual g5 right? Have you found a way to optimize it to handle 1080p raw footage? How good does it handle editing HD? Hope your comercial shoots go well. Get well.

October 16th, 2005, 11:27 AM	#339
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Ronald, firehose sounds interesting....is this a software solution that allows you to tie together multiple connections to transfer the different parts of the same information? Would one set it up with multiple firewire conections coming off the same camera say? Sorry for the ignorance, I am still learning the intracasies of the type of specialized computer knowledge we need to make projects like these happen. thanks, Omar

October 16th, 2005, 12:15 PM	#340
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	Omar, Yes I am on dual G5 2,7, with XT800 and deckling HD pro, and HUGE system raid capable of speed 210+. And you know what? Final Cut is not good at all with uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p. Not at all. It need render all the time, and I am so unhappy with that. Well, Final Cut itself is a great tool, but they advertise everywhere that it is capable of Real Time uncompressed HD, but it is NOT. So I am working with it anyways, because all my jobs are on film and most of them are finally trasfered back to film, so I have no other option, I have to wait to render, it doesn't take a long time to render either, but it is that why the hell they advertise like that. And when I call them they tell me it should. That is funny. Since you asked, do you have similar problem?

October 16th, 2005, 09:49 PM	#341
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	@Levan Actually I do not have my set up yet. I have been doing a lot of reading and was on the verge of buying a dual g5 2.7ghz system, however after some research it seem that the amd dual opteron pc is maybe the better way to go. You can drop twice the ram (16gb) and in a head to head test with the dual g5 2.7 running aftereffects for various types or rendering it came out ahead or equal in almost every task. I am bummed out. I have been a long time pc user and have always run into problems over the years with them. My cousin is an audio engineer and has sold me on the idea of using a mac for my next project, as they are never seem to have the same problems and errors, viruses, etc. that pc does....but now with what I have read and with you have said I am not so sure about mac. I wonder what others have experienced with them on this board? Anyhow good luck with the commercial shoots and I cant wait to see some of the 1080p footage! @ Frank have you met with the Drake team yet? How did it go, do they have a working 1080p camera yet....ready to sell?

October 17th, 2005, 07:00 AM	#344
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Finally! Finally, cheap progressive HD alternative to HD1! I have just found this link to the next hard drive based JVC Everio HD camera in the news section. The quick and the dead, how do these sort of releases effect peoples decisions on the cameras here, presuming it comes with uncompressed component out? Maybe we can expect more cameras from other manufacturers soon. http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools Last edited by Wayne Morellini; October 17th, 2005 at 08:13 AM.

October 18th, 2005, 10:42 AM	#345
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	posted a zillion times but http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT3888835064.html and 1280 x 1024 @ 30fps could be cheap pumps out on Ethernet