Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera

Frank Schoerner · August 30th, 2005, 01:37 AM

Levan, you are right. RealStream is a good think for video people. But the output is just what the input produced. And the input is the sensor from a video camera. It is a very small ccd sensor without film like dof but with video like motion blur. The ARRI D20 and DRAKE is made with cmos sensors from the same manufacter. And both cameras are made for film people with funktion like film cameras. Maybe this is the trick why both make filmlook pictures.

@Juan. The new panavision genesis use a 12,5MP cdd, but with high dynamic range like cmos. I saw a article with this: The first genesis pixelrow use a different gain like the second, and so on... So the first row see the low and the second row the high lights. All together, this trick make a high dynamic range picture, like a cmos sensor.

Maybe the Drake people do it like the Kinetta people. I had a call, 4-5 weeks ago and they told me, they shoot two movies at the same time. One with a 8Bit Drake, the other with a 12Bit Drake. So it must be min. two Drake´s. And they told me, they made tests with altasens and they worked also on a full 35mm dim. cmos version.

Adam Burtle · August 30th, 2005, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham

35mm film frame size is 22mm x 18.5mm I think somewhere around that and It depends on if it is regular 35mm or super35.

24x18mm aperature for full frame with no soundtrack inframe, if i recall. frame height is 19mm for 4 perf (16frames per foot). 4 perf with soundtrack can vary, but 22x16 and 21x16 are common i believe.

(this is all completely out of my head, and i don't shoot film, so if i'm wrong, it's not my fault ;)

Levan Bakhia · August 30th, 2005, 04:58 AM

Yes, and also, if you go to www.purposelabs.com you can download some clips, that are also shot with CMOS sensor. Actually, as a whole I don't like footage on this site, but it still has a better look than CCD cameras.

And another arguement is that why would ARRI choose CMOS on their D20, it definately is not because of the price, they chose what is best, I guess.

@Frank, I don't know about DRAKE, what they were planning 4-5 weeks ago, but I wanted to buy a camera and I don't have one. I also think that the DRAKE team has plit up, I don't want to specify why I think so, but this is not my imagination, it is not my business also. They never told me if they were experimenting with 35mm sensors. Well, now that you mention it I recall that they have shown me some footage with CCD sensors on their camera, and again I didn't like it at all, but I have to be honest, it had a wider dynamic range. 8bit version of DRAKE is just not good enough, believe me, I tested it, and It doesn't have enough colors to the picture. Even 12 bit, couldn't capture color as sharp as they were in real, but I liked it anyways because I like the look.

Keith Wakeham · August 30th, 2005, 12:47 PM

4:4:4 has each colour given its own whole channel in RGB normally while 4:2:2 is YUV and the U and V channel or only half the width of the Y channel.

Rolling shutter is something to be avoided, so if it has global that is better and you really don't need to even think any more about rolling.

On a note about IBIS5, if you check the CFA wavelegthn response you see some bad overlap on green and blue which will cause some difficult colour response.

Wayne Morellini · August 30th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn

CMOS and CCD look almost the same.Forget about saying CMOS is more "organic".
The infamous "video look" has nothing to be with that.It is related to the after sensor image processing (border enhancements and some other several things)
A key factor for "film like" quality is called "dynamic range".
Has anyone looked at the images from DVX100 "CCD" miniDV camera from Reel-Stream?

Hm. I've seen various images from the Reel stream and while they look better than images from the normal camera they still have that video sheen to them and not as good as the CMOS chip footage. The main problem is latitude of the 1/3 inch ccd compared to the 2/3 inch CMOS (or even the 1/3 inch in the HC1).

As you said, there are many factors involved, even the fact that Ibis has 100% sensor fill factor compared to normal ccd. Apart from the well capacity, SNR and QE, one of the best bets would be to compare the response curves of the different colours in film to the sensors. This determines much of the look.

I imagine that Obin is going to be using that sanfor?? CCD sensor that what's his name posted to the technical thread a few months ago. The one with industry leading statistics (escapes me at the moment but you would know Juan). Though Ibis also has another large sensor capable of 1080p in it's lupa range.

Wayne Morellini · August 30th, 2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levan Bakhia

@Frank, I don't know about DRAKE, what they were planning 4-5 weeks ago, but I wanted to buy a camera and I don't have one. I also think that the DRAKE team has plit up, I don't want to specify why I think so, but this is not my imagination, it is not my business also. They never told me if they were experimenting with 35mm sensors. Well, now that you mention it I recall that they have shown me some footage with CCD sensors on their camera, and again I didn't like it at all, but I have to be honest, it had a wider dynamic range. 8bit version of DRAKE is just not good enough, believe me, I tested it, and It doesn't have enough colors to the picture. Even 12 bit, couldn't capture color as sharp as they were in real, but I liked it anyways because I like the look.

I am curious about this as well, I discuss different things (new cameras) then everything, everywhere, went quiet all of a sudden. Let's hope the calm before the storm. I don't think they have much need to come here, as people here, in general, are looking for below $10K cameras rather than $18K camera.

Keith:

About the colour overlap, I did a post somewhere about it, how a little bit of overlap could be used to register edges/and detail in Bayer footage, and filtered out during saturation enhancement. This would be particularly useful for monochromatic, and complementary, coloured surfaces and low light, and I guess that might have been their intention.

How's your project going?

Eric Gorski · August 31st, 2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Edwards

Also that woman's face looks like hardened clay.

dammit.. so inappropriate.. yet so funny.

Keith Wakeham · August 31st, 2005, 06:58 AM

Wayne:

I'm sorry to say that I'm under obligations not to reveal details of what I am currently working on or the current status of my project only that things are happening and they are getting really interesting now.

Also never really though about using the colour overlap to any use, always though of it as a hinderance.

Levan Bakhia · September 24th, 2005, 02:38 AM

I went to Moscow and saw the camera. It is working, and has great picture, and most importantly very good color information. It is 1920X1080 10 bit 4:2:2 with 1" CMOS sensor. You can use any standard film camera lenses on this camera, the configuration I saw in Moscow had some Arri lense on it. It has great DOF. As the developer explained it is true 10bit, he compared his camera to D20, and he said that D20 has higher resolution and 14bit, but he said that it is not true 14bit, it is some mathematical calcuation of 14bit, he said that in future he will also have 14bit. As a recording medium the camera uses flash recorders. Each recorder at this moment is capable of recording 3 minutes of video. This flash recorders are detachable and you can own several of them so that this way you get as many recording minumutes as you want, it is just that the cost of each recorder is 2000. He is also writing some looseless codec and it two month the same recorders will be capable of recording of up to 20 minutes. He said that upgrade will be free, with no additional costs. The standard camera can record all know standard formats, like 24p, 25p, 30i, 60i or whatevere. The maximum speed of the camera in HD is 50fps progressive. The standard cost 18000USD. I decided to purchase the camera and I will have it by the 18th of October, but I customised it, my version will also be able to work in SD and record up to 1000 FPS progressive.

On october the october the 17th, if I remeber it correctly, there will a tennis championship in Moscow, Cup of Kreml, it will be on satellite on air and this camera will be shooting the championshi, specifically some slow motion effects you going to see there.

I liked the DRAKE functions, but the picture quality of the russian one is much, much better.

When I shoot first matterial with this camera I will post the links to the matterial so that you can watch.

Jeremie Galan · September 25th, 2005, 03:20 PM

btw, any news about DRAKE ?

i m still waiting a official news about avaibility to purchase it...

Omar Saad · September 25th, 2005, 06:24 PM

That is great news Levan! Please keep us updated on how everything goes and definately try to post some pictures of the camera as well as some clips for it. A couple of questions....will it output 4.4.4 RGB? Also what do you think that0 you will be able to edit that kind of footage on? Dual core mac G5 maybe?

Levan Bakhia · September 26th, 2005, 12:48 AM

..........

Levan Bakhia · September 26th, 2005, 12:52 AM

@Omar

No, standard version of the camera can not record 4:4:4, but as I was explained the stream is 4:4:4 and if I wanted I could order the special recorder or use any standard recorders with dual link. But at this moment I go with 4:2:2.

About editing, I have G5 dual 2,7, with 4GB ram, Deckling HD pro and Huge Raid. But to tell you the truth, I have problems with editing HD material in real time in Final Cut Pro. I don't understand, why apple keeps advertising that FCP can edit uncompressed 8 or 10 bit 4:2:2 in real time, it is not true, at least not in my case, I am so disapointed. I might have some setting wrong, but I don't know, I think I tried everything and it doesn't do real time.

I will keep you updated about the camera and post pictures.

@Jeremie

Why are you waiting for DRAKE to be on sale? Last news from them was that the camera is not working. Do you know anything else? As I know the team is splited up. I recieved e-mail from them that Marc Oliver is not a part of the team any more, but on the other hand if you go to their web page, the contact info is still on him, and their site has not changed a long time, and they have not replied to so many post in this forum. I don't think that DRAKE is reality any more, unfortunatelly.

Wayne Morellini · September 26th, 2005, 01:17 AM

I think the sad truth is, that when operations like this get this involved and spend the amount of time and money on it that they have, all else becomes an after thought. Then there is the problems associated with this sort of business, and personal things that happen. Pity I liked these fellas.

I know they were looking at alternative sensors and customisations that cost money, maybe this is the hiccup stopping/holding up the new version of Drake.

But the problem is they are going for the upmarket sector (well down market compared to normal film production) but so many companies are also going for the same market, where it is very expensive to offer the absolute best, to compete with the big guys. The real market is something similarly priced to HDV cameras but greatly out performing them with full film and video feature sets. I feel the cinema emphasis in the forum is "cooking" a lot of projects, in marketing terms. But now the problem is that a HC1 with 35mm lens adaptor and analogue component recording, offers a viable alternative in the low end. So that market is becoming very competitive also.

Levan Bakhia · September 26th, 2005, 01:21 AM

http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe001.bmp
http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe002.bmp
http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe003.bmp

These are the frames from russian camera, they have uploaded them on their web page. I was there when they did the shots, it was in a office room, without any lighting, just the room light.

What do you think?

August 30th, 2005, 04:58 AM	#303
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	Yes, and also, if you go to www.purposelabs.com you can download some clips, that are also shot with CMOS sensor. Actually, as a whole I don't like footage on this site, but it still has a better look than CCD cameras. And another arguement is that why would ARRI choose CMOS on their D20, it definately is not because of the price, they chose what is best, I guess. @Frank, I don't know about DRAKE, what they were planning 4-5 weeks ago, but I wanted to buy a camera and I don't have one. I also think that the DRAKE team has plit up, I don't want to specify why I think so, but this is not my imagination, it is not my business also. They never told me if they were experimenting with 35mm sensors. Well, now that you mention it I recall that they have shown me some footage with CCD sensors on their camera, and again I didn't like it at all, but I have to be honest, it had a wider dynamic range. 8bit version of DRAKE is just not good enough, believe me, I tested it, and It doesn't have enough colors to the picture. Even 12 bit, couldn't capture color as sharp as they were in real, but I liked it anyways because I like the look. Last edited by Levan Bakhia; August 30th, 2005 at 06:04 AM.

September 24th, 2005, 02:38 AM	#309
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	UPDATE on Russian Camera I went to Moscow and saw the camera. It is working, and has great picture, and most importantly very good color information. It is 1920X1080 10 bit 4:2:2 with 1" CMOS sensor. You can use any standard film camera lenses on this camera, the configuration I saw in Moscow had some Arri lense on it. It has great DOF. As the developer explained it is true 10bit, he compared his camera to D20, and he said that D20 has higher resolution and 14bit, but he said that it is not true 14bit, it is some mathematical calcuation of 14bit, he said that in future he will also have 14bit. As a recording medium the camera uses flash recorders. Each recorder at this moment is capable of recording 3 minutes of video. This flash recorders are detachable and you can own several of them so that this way you get as many recording minumutes as you want, it is just that the cost of each recorder is 2000. He is also writing some looseless codec and it two month the same recorders will be capable of recording of up to 20 minutes. He said that upgrade will be free, with no additional costs. The standard camera can record all know standard formats, like 24p, 25p, 30i, 60i or whatevere. The maximum speed of the camera in HD is 50fps progressive. The standard cost 18000USD. I decided to purchase the camera and I will have it by the 18th of October, but I customised it, my version will also be able to work in SD and record up to 1000 FPS progressive. On october the october the 17th, if I remeber it correctly, there will a tennis championship in Moscow, Cup of Kreml, it will be on satellite on air and this camera will be shooting the championshi, specifically some slow motion effects you going to see there. I liked the DRAKE functions, but the picture quality of the russian one is much, much better. When I shoot first matterial with this camera I will post the links to the matterial so that you can watch.

August 30th, 2005, 01:37 AM	#301
Frank Schoerner New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	Levan, you are right. RealStream is a good think for video people. But the output is just what the input produced. And the input is the sensor from a video camera. It is a very small ccd sensor without film like dof but with video like motion blur. The ARRI D20 and DRAKE is made with cmos sensors from the same manufacter. And both cameras are made for film people with funktion like film cameras. Maybe this is the trick why both make filmlook pictures. @Juan. The new panavision genesis use a 12,5MP cdd, but with high dynamic range like cmos. I saw a article with this: The first genesis pixelrow use a different gain like the second, and so on... So the first row see the low and the second row the high lights. All together, this trick make a high dynamic range picture, like a cmos sensor. Maybe the Drake people do it like the Kinetta people. I had a call, 4-5 weeks ago and they told me, they shoot two movies at the same time. One with a 8Bit Drake, the other with a 12Bit Drake. So it must be min. two Drake´s. And they told me, they made tests with altasens and they worked also on a full 35mm dim. cmos version.

August 30th, 2005, 12:47 PM	#304
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	4:4:4 has each colour given its own whole channel in RGB normally while 4:2:2 is YUV and the U and V channel or only half the width of the Y channel. Rolling shutter is something to be avoided, so if it has global that is better and you really don't need to even think any more about rolling. On a note about IBIS5, if you check the CFA wavelegthn response you see some bad overlap on green and blue which will cause some difficult colour response.

August 31st, 2005, 06:58 AM	#308
Keith Wakeham Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: St. John's, NL, Canada Posts: 416	Wayne: I'm sorry to say that I'm under obligations not to reveal details of what I am currently working on or the current status of my project only that things are happening and they are getting really interesting now. Also never really though about using the colour overlap to any use, always though of it as a hinderance.

September 25th, 2005, 03:20 PM	#310
Jeremie Galan New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11	btw, any news about DRAKE ? i m still waiting a official news about avaibility to purchase it...

September 25th, 2005, 06:24 PM	#311
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	That is great news Levan! Please keep us updated on how everything goes and definately try to post some pictures of the camera as well as some clips for it. A couple of questions....will it output 4.4.4 RGB? Also what do you think that0 you will be able to edit that kind of footage on? Dual core mac G5 maybe?

September 26th, 2005, 12:48 AM	#312
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	..........

September 26th, 2005, 12:52 AM	#313
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	@Omar No, standard version of the camera can not record 4:4:4, but as I was explained the stream is 4:4:4 and if I wanted I could order the special recorder or use any standard recorders with dual link. But at this moment I go with 4:2:2. About editing, I have G5 dual 2,7, with 4GB ram, Deckling HD pro and Huge Raid. But to tell you the truth, I have problems with editing HD material in real time in Final Cut Pro. I don't understand, why apple keeps advertising that FCP can edit uncompressed 8 or 10 bit 4:2:2 in real time, it is not true, at least not in my case, I am so disapointed. I might have some setting wrong, but I don't know, I think I tried everything and it doesn't do real time. I will keep you updated about the camera and post pictures. @Jeremie Why are you waiting for DRAKE to be on sale? Last news from them was that the camera is not working. Do you know anything else? As I know the team is splited up. I recieved e-mail from them that Marc Oliver is not a part of the team any more, but on the other hand if you go to their web page, the contact info is still on him, and their site has not changed a long time, and they have not replied to so many post in this forum. I don't think that DRAKE is reality any more, unfortunatelly.

September 26th, 2005, 01:17 AM	#314
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I think the sad truth is, that when operations like this get this involved and spend the amount of time and money on it that they have, all else becomes an after thought. Then there is the problems associated with this sort of business, and personal things that happen. Pity I liked these fellas. I know they were looking at alternative sensors and customisations that cost money, maybe this is the hiccup stopping/holding up the new version of Drake. But the problem is they are going for the upmarket sector (well down market compared to normal film production) but so many companies are also going for the same market, where it is very expensive to offer the absolute best, to compete with the big guys. The real market is something similarly priced to HDV cameras but greatly out performing them with full film and video feature sets. I feel the cinema emphasis in the forum is "cooking" a lot of projects, in marketing terms. But now the problem is that a HC1 with 35mm lens adaptor and analogue component recording, offers a viable alternative in the low end. So that market is becoming very competitive also.

September 26th, 2005, 01:21 AM	#315
Levan Bakhia Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 230	http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe001.bmp http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe002.bmp http://www.ctt.ru/files/images/HD_Op...moframe003.bmp These are the frames from russian camera, they have uploaded them on their web page. I was there when they did the shots, it was in a office room, without any lighting, just the room light. What do you think?