Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera

Obin Olson · April 5th, 2005, 06:45 PM

do you guys have some more images from your shoots? I wiould like to see some 1280 images from the ibis5a...can you show some color ones with lots of color?

Wayne Morellini · April 5th, 2005, 11:23 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : CMOS produced near 35mm DOF. This work, because our sensor have NO build in microlenses. Why dont use other camera manufactors those lenses?
..
But with microlenses and f stops under 1:1.4 the pictures washed
-->>

F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). I imagine, if they use very accurately shaped microlens they can get these aperture, but if they use very small microlens (4 to a pixel) they can get even more. Microlens collects light that would fall in between sensor pads and directs towards sensor. This can be a lot, and also affect Signal to Noise ratio (as we know). The reason Ibis gets away with it, is because they have a second sensor mechanism around the pad that determines how much misses sensor pad (but I think only roughly, the second pad does not seem to boost the signal so much). But, eventually, you go so wide with aperture, that light bounces off the surface of the chip (or diffracts across ridges in the chip) I do not know how wide that is, but then you need to use an optical mechanism that straighted path of light (like the four third format also does).

While Ibis 5 and 4 use same technologies, I think it is possible 4 is taking advantage of improvements since 5a.

> BTW: I found a cheap way to build full resolution HDTV
> viewfinders. (full 720 and also full 1080, mono or color)> . Its crazy, but it work...

You should have asked me, I also have way to do this, I mentioned last year, in fact there are a number of ways, some really cheap (but depends on quality you want).

Rai Orz · April 6th, 2005, 01:24 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). -->>>

Please do not missunderstand:
1.) I said, most microlens sensors produced unsharp pictures if f stop goes under 1.4 (1.6=sharp, 1.4=samewhat unsharp, 1.2 unsharp, 1.0=total unsharp and also colors whashed out, testet with a lot of sensors and viedeo cameras). BTW. Together with wide angle lenses the blurring beginns at 1.6 and is always harder. The reason is clear described in the DALSA PDF (i posted the link before)
2.) I said not, 1.4=35mm, no,no. But i said, Drakes sensor have no microlenses. The down side is, it need more light, the up side is, it work together with extrem fast lenses far under 1.14 (and those extrem fast lenses compensate this downside).
3.) For example, most clips you saw, was shot with f under 1:0.95. And those f stops (together with a 2/3" sensor) are in fact = near 35mm DOF.

Wayne, your right, there are optical mechanism that straighted path of light, but those ways are bad for DOF (because if the light beams, came out of lenses, are absolute parallel, there is no focal plane, that mean, the sensor can move backwards and forwards without lost focus. That mean also, the pictures are sharp from macro to infinity)

<<<-- While Ibis 5 and 4 use same technologies, I think it is possible 4 is taking advantage of improvements since 5a. -->>>

That make sense, if Ibis4 was made after Ibis5. But Ibis4 was first.

Rai Orz · April 6th, 2005, 01:39 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Rai PLEASE tell me how your building HDTV viewfinders!! I want to know! GREAT WORK! -->>>

Thanks, great work also to you.

HD-viewfinder: I do some patent researches before i will tell details. (Years ago i made bad experiences about those things). But be sure, i will tell you the "secret" and then you can use it also.

<<<-- do you guys have some more images from your shoots? -->>>

Next days we send more links, after the magazine is out

Wayne Morellini · April 6th, 2005, 07:22 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : <<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). -->>>

> Please do not missunderstand:

No, I understood that you meant 1.4 as for microlens quality (just that they might be able to, eventually, go better with alternative designs). I was also agreeing that 1.4 was not good enough compared to your superfast lens, for 35mm DOF.

> Wayne, your right, there are optical mechanism that
> straighted path of light, but those ways are bad for
> DOF

Unless you establish the image and DOF, before the light comes out straight. There are techniques (screenless 35mm adaptor).

> Ibis4 was made after Ibis5. But Ibis4 was first.

Sorry, I thought it was the one I saw on their site released last year. What revision date is it, I know that the Ibis5a does not use all their technology (used in the fast Lupa version).

I am eager to see this HD viewer, and see if it is one of the designs I have considered.

Obin Olson · April 6th, 2005, 03:08 PM

Rai I understand..let me know when you can

Obin Olson · April 7th, 2005, 05:47 PM

I want to see some frames/video! c'mon guys...I wana see it! ;)

Markus Rupprecht · April 10th, 2005, 11:29 PM

We finally made it to set up a first web page in english!

Check www.drachenfeder.com and select the buttom right image for the english pages. You will find some more clips, a feature list and more camera pictures there.

Cheers
Markus

Wayne Morellini · April 11th, 2005, 01:37 AM

Look's nice Markus, are these color corrected versions of the clips (I'm still downloading the clips).

Looks very good, like that little capture frame idea, good thinking.

It mentions a shutter mode of 1000th/sec, is it still using he Ibis5a?

It doesn't mention shooting mode/technique, is there any mode for video work?

It says 66MByte per second for image save. 1280*720*24fps@8bit is less than 24MB/s, are you saving a de-bayered 4:4:4 image. Is there an option to save straight Bayer, would fit a lot more on disk, and de-bayer latter?

Well, now the standard has been set for everybody else to aspire too.

Thanks

Wayne.

Rob Lohman · April 11th, 2005, 03:28 AM

I see the price is in as well:

15,000.- EUR or 19,500.- USD

That was kinda what I was expecting. I'm doubt many here on DVi
have that much cash available....

It looks great!

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · April 11th, 2005, 06:13 AM

I still think color quality is really bad.
May be if you could post some other kind of clips we could see how it performs under different situations.
As it is right now I'd better use any cheapo HDV stuff....

Wayne Morellini · April 11th, 2005, 07:39 AM

There on those English pages on the site.

Technical discussion, colour:

About the colours, I agree with you Juan, a little, but I think it only needs a bit more. Unlike camcorders, this camera allows you to do colour correction to taste. I would like to compare what a colour corrected versions looks like.

I think for cinema people, it is what they actually prefer.

I watched a late 60's movie the other night, that had been colour corrected. Though it looked good it was obvious the colours were a bit flat, as the original colour lacked the fidelity (??). If the original colour had twice as much range and definition, the transfer would have been much better, as to be unobjectionable. So how much is enough. Juan, you have done color correction, what do you think?

I don't know what causes this in the Ibis, is it the collection mechanism around the sensor, or the filter? I have seen similar on the fill-factory dual slope white paper page, in the dark and dual-slope images. Some ibis images even look like they have a little washout. On a microlens sensor they concentrate the light down on the sensor pad. This should concentrate response at the expense of sensitivity, range, and noise, compared to bigger sensor pads.

Joshua Starnes · April 11th, 2005, 11:46 AM

My biggest question would be, when it is ready for rental, what will the rental price be, and would you rent to the US?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · April 11th, 2005, 06:16 PM

Well, I don't really know.
I guess you can push them further if they are getting the full 10 bit (linear) from the sensor.
Even if the colors were really too noisy, there is a vast selection of filters you can use to lower it...
extreme example: even if the reds and blues get to no more than 8 bit precision at last the final image would look far better than it looks right now.
About cine people: It is a misconcept to believe Cine people want washed out colors, if that were the case what would be the reason for negative manufacturers to sell low ASA/ISO films which have blowing mind color saturation and richness ?

Obin Olson · April 11th, 2005, 06:27 PM

I just dont like the ibis chips ..can i see some outdoor mid day shots from the drake?

April 11th, 2005, 03:28 AM	#220
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I see the price is in as well: 15,000.- EUR or 19,500.- USD That was kinda what I was expecting. I'm doubt many here on DVi have that much cash available.... It looks great! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 5th, 2005, 06:45 PM	#211
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	do you guys have some more images from your shoots? I wiould like to see some 1280 images from the ibis5a...can you show some color ones with lots of color?

April 5th, 2005, 11:23 PM	#212
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : CMOS produced near 35mm DOF. This work, because our sensor have NO build in microlenses. Why dont use other camera manufactors those lenses? .. But with microlenses and f stops under 1:1.4 the pictures washed -->> F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). I imagine, if they use very accurately shaped microlens they can get these aperture, but if they use very small microlens (4 to a pixel) they can get even more. Microlens collects light that would fall in between sensor pads and directs towards sensor. This can be a lot, and also affect Signal to Noise ratio (as we know). The reason Ibis gets away with it, is because they have a second sensor mechanism around the pad that determines how much misses sensor pad (but I think only roughly, the second pad does not seem to boost the signal so much). But, eventually, you go so wide with aperture, that light bounces off the surface of the chip (or diffracts across ridges in the chip) I do not know how wide that is, but then you need to use an optical mechanism that straighted path of light (like the four third format also does). While Ibis 5 and 4 use same technologies, I think it is possible 4 is taking advantage of improvements since 5a. > BTW: I found a cheap way to build full resolution HDTV > viewfinders. (full 720 and also full 1080, mono or color)> . Its crazy, but it work... You should have asked me, I also have way to do this, I mentioned last year, in fact there are a number of ways, some really cheap (but depends on quality you want).

April 6th, 2005, 01:24 AM	#213
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). -->>> Please do not missunderstand: 1.) I said, most microlens sensors produced unsharp pictures if f stop goes under 1.4 (1.6=sharp, 1.4=samewhat unsharp, 1.2 unsharp, 1.0=total unsharp and also colors whashed out, testet with a lot of sensors and viedeo cameras). BTW. Together with wide angle lenses the blurring beginns at 1.6 and is always harder. The reason is clear described in the DALSA PDF (i posted the link before) 2.) I said not, 1.4=35mm, no,no. But i said, Drakes sensor have no microlenses. The down side is, it need more light, the up side is, it work together with extrem fast lenses far under 1.14 (and those extrem fast lenses compensate this downside). 3.) For example, most clips you saw, was shot with f under 1:0.95. And those f stops (together with a 2/3" sensor) are in fact = near 35mm DOF. Wayne, your right, there are optical mechanism that straighted path of light, but those ways are bad for DOF (because if the light beams, came out of lenses, are absolute parallel, there is no focal plane, that mean, the sensor can move backwards and forwards without lost focus. That mean also, the pictures are sharp from macro to infinity) <<<-- While Ibis 5 and 4 use same technologies, I think it is possible 4 is taking advantage of improvements since 5a. -->>> That make sense, if Ibis4 was made after Ibis5. But Ibis4 was first.

April 6th, 2005, 01:39 AM	#214
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Rai PLEASE tell me how your building HDTV viewfinders!! I want to know! GREAT WORK! -->>> Thanks, great work also to you. HD-viewfinder: I do some patent researches before i will tell details. (Years ago i made bad experiences about those things). But be sure, i will tell you the "secret" and then you can use it also. <<<-- do you guys have some more images from your shoots? -->>> Next days we send more links, after the magazine is out

April 6th, 2005, 07:22 AM	#215
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Rai Orz : <<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : F1:1.4, thats pretty good (but not for 35mm like DOF). -->>> > Please do not missunderstand: No, I understood that you meant 1.4 as for microlens quality (just that they might be able to, eventually, go better with alternative designs). I was also agreeing that 1.4 was not good enough compared to your superfast lens, for 35mm DOF. > Wayne, your right, there are optical mechanism that > straighted path of light, but those ways are bad for > DOF Unless you establish the image and DOF, before the light comes out straight. There are techniques (screenless 35mm adaptor). > Ibis4 was made after Ibis5. But Ibis4 was first. Sorry, I thought it was the one I saw on their site released last year. What revision date is it, I know that the Ibis5a does not use all their technology (used in the fast Lupa version). I am eager to see this HD viewer, and see if it is one of the designs I have considered.

April 6th, 2005, 03:08 PM	#216
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Rai I understand..let me know when you can

April 7th, 2005, 05:47 PM	#217
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I want to see some frames/video! c'mon guys...I wana see it! ;)

April 10th, 2005, 11:29 PM	#218
Markus Rupprecht Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: germany Posts: 31	We finally made it to set up a first web page in english! Check www.drachenfeder.com and select the buttom right image for the english pages. You will find some more clips, a feature list and more camera pictures there. Cheers Markus

April 11th, 2005, 01:37 AM	#219
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Look's nice Markus, are these color corrected versions of the clips (I'm still downloading the clips). Looks very good, like that little capture frame idea, good thinking. It mentions a shutter mode of 1000th/sec, is it still using he Ibis5a? It doesn't mention shooting mode/technique, is there any mode for video work? It says 66MByte per second for image save. 128072024fps@8bit is less than 24MB/s, are you saving a de-bayered 4:4:4 image. Is there an option to save straight Bayer, would fit a lot more on disk, and de-bayer latter? Well, now the standard has been set for everybody else to aspire too. Thanks Wayne.

April 11th, 2005, 06:13 AM	#221
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	I still think color quality is really bad. May be if you could post some other kind of clips we could see how it performs under different situations. As it is right now I'd better use any cheapo HDV stuff....

April 11th, 2005, 07:39 AM	#222
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	There on those English pages on the site. Technical discussion, colour: About the colours, I agree with you Juan, a little, but I think it only needs a bit more. Unlike camcorders, this camera allows you to do colour correction to taste. I would like to compare what a colour corrected versions looks like. I think for cinema people, it is what they actually prefer. I watched a late 60's movie the other night, that had been colour corrected. Though it looked good it was obvious the colours were a bit flat, as the original colour lacked the fidelity (??). If the original colour had twice as much range and definition, the transfer would have been much better, as to be unobjectionable. So how much is enough. Juan, you have done color correction, what do you think? I don't know what causes this in the Ibis, is it the collection mechanism around the sensor, or the filter? I have seen similar on the fill-factory dual slope white paper page, in the dark and dual-slope images. Some ibis images even look like they have a little washout. On a microlens sensor they concentrate the light down on the sensor pad. This should concentrate response at the expense of sensitivity, range, and noise, compared to bigger sensor pads.

April 11th, 2005, 11:46 AM	#223
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	My biggest question would be, when it is ready for rental, what will the rental price be, and would you rent to the US?

April 11th, 2005, 06:16 PM	#224
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Well, I don't really know. I guess you can push them further if they are getting the full 10 bit (linear) from the sensor. Even if the colors were really too noisy, there is a vast selection of filters you can use to lower it... extreme example: even if the reds and blues get to no more than 8 bit precision at last the final image would look far better than it looks right now. About cine people: It is a misconcept to believe Cine people want washed out colors, if that were the case what would be the reason for negative manufacturers to sell low ASA/ISO films which have blowing mind color saturation and richness ?

April 11th, 2005, 06:27 PM	#225
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I just dont like the ibis chips ..can i see some outdoor mid day shots from the drake?