Consolidated XL1 35mm Adapter Thread

Roger Moore · October 17th, 2004, 12:13 PM

Or duplicate the nested forums that we have for Quickstream and Firestore in the Direct-to-Disk (Tapeless) Recording Solutions forum.

Create an XL1/XL2 sub-forum here and dump all the related threads into it. Forget about turning this thread into a single dogpile which would be a mess because I see this thread as a fresh start and prefer it clean and lean.

My 2 yen.

Stephen Birdsong · October 17th, 2004, 01:09 PM

ok, sounds good.
Lets just make sure this stays the active thread and the others remain simply for reference.

As soon as I get my check card in the mail (just moved state and changed banks) I will order those optics.

What are other people doing?

Does anyone have a 20-25mm 35mm still lens?
If so, that would help us over our first obstacle, figuring out distance/focal length to capture 36x24mm frame.

stephen

Bob Hart · October 17th, 2004, 08:52 PM

I am probably repeating what someone has already mentioned. If so please ignore with my apologies.

One needs to know the flange to focal plane of the Canon XL1 lens 3 x CCD combination, or the distance the CCD "sees".

My method for doing this would be to take the XL1 lens, set it towards a target and position a groundglass behind, then position the groundglass for the sharpest image, then find alternative prime lenses to do the same to find the flange face for that lens relative to the XL1. I would use this method as well as known distances and calculations as I don't know if there are other optics in the path from the XL1 mount through the prism to each of the CCDs in the camera. If they exist, then a simple measurement of the flange to focal plane of the alternative lens will not be valid.

This may be difficult if the XL1 lens is a servo lens like most camcorders and cannot be set to a fixed known distance to target.

Once this is established, then experiment onto a closer target the size of the ALDU preferred image frame size, by moving the lens forward of the flange face until the frame size match is found.

Instead of messing with a groundglass and magnifier and lots of eyestrain, a single-chip security camera into a large TV display would be a handy alternative unless you use the XL1 camera itself. I don't know if it will operate without its own lens installed.

I hope I am not throwing too many people off into a dead-end by this suggestion.

Richard Mellor · October 17th, 2004, 10:08 PM

hi everyone I made a static adapter with the optmo sigma 1500 ground glass and yes it was the best ground glass yet . I built the first adapter out of 52mm filter rings I can not get the lenses precise enough in the filter rings . I have just placed a order with thorlabs for a stackable lens tube and two retaining rings I will be using the 1500 grit ground glass and aplcx 50mm lens with a focal length of 60mm the tube will allow fine tuned focal length
from the camera lens and the ability to fit the plcx directly on the ground glass. in this stackable tube we could build any combination we might need.

http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=213&Product_ID=1481

http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?&DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=1132&Product_ID=36117

this is link to the static adapter made with optmo sigma ground glass http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor/35%20mm%20lens%20test%202.jpg

Bob Hart · October 18th, 2004, 03:39 AM

Kevin.

I jumped the gun and started posting on the new combined thread.

Before you splash out and buy the expensive 25mm C mount lens, try your secondhand store and see if there is a Cosmicar 25mm C-Mount lens. That is what I tested with.

You still have to have to C-Mount to XL1 adaptor. With that installed you could probably justify to a security company coming down to their shop and trying out a whole bucket full of their lenses on the cam in their shop.

Alternatively the CS-Mount security camera lenses will mount to C-Mount with a plastic spacer. Both have the same thread and the spacers could be stacked until the back focus is right. They are also relatively cheap and are no loss if filed down to be thinner and it doesn't work first try.

A 25mm C-Mount lens is also used on some video taps on CP16Rs.

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 04:28 AM

Why do you think P+S use a 850,- lens?
Mount a security camera lenses on your XL and compare the picures with those from the Schneider lens. There are worlds between.
If you wont, we also have security camera lenses, down to round 35,-$ but the pictures are so bad, that you also can use a very bad still GG. If you wont this, do it.

Kevin Burnfield · October 18th, 2004, 05:51 AM

that's okay, Bob... actually I'd like to move all of it over there so we can all be on the same page.

Richard Mellor · October 18th, 2004, 05:56 AM

hi everyone I have been looking for this part for some time . thi s may be what we need to make a relay lenes it's a component
for a stackable tube system from thorlabs with proper lenses
and advice from optmo sigma .it has a focus adjustment of 1 1/2 inches . this could also allow this adapter to be fitted on any camera.I am sure we can make a great relay' for less tha a thousand dollars. heck this is laser stuff . It's made to be
precision. I wish the parts were cheaper but I have wasted a lot of money on 5 devices agus, aldu,et al .It is time to build this out of quality components.. even the components will retain part of there value on the used market

http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=214&Product_ID=1486

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 06:10 AM

Laser works only on a fixed wavelength and have only a small beam.

Photo optics must be color corrected and sharp not only in the middle. This why the constuction of a good photo/film lens have much more than two lenses. Here is a datasheet with a inside look of the Schneider Kreuznach lens. Look at the lens design:

http://www.schneideroptics.com/oem/c-mount/visible_spectrum/pdf/xenon_095_25.pdf

Richard Mellor · October 18th, 2004, 07:19 AM

this movie was made with a homemade adapter with condenser lens . {life agaiist memory}. color looked ok to me

www.triggerstreet.com

Richard Mellor · October 18th, 2004, 08:25 AM

I think there is a short window of use that needs to be considerd .
the mini35 sells for 7,000- 10,000. this allows small ccd chips
to attain shallow depth of field. the movie life againist memory
was made with a less than $300 homemade attachment
shallow depth of field was obtained ,and I think greatly improved
look and feel of movie . all of these devices will degrade image
even the holy grail mini35. my purchase of say $500 in laser componets would still have the value of the laser componets in 5years .in five years nobody will attach a device that degrades the image. when 35mm lenes can be attached to ccd that are 35mm . our device will not be used. but our components will
still have value . If made from laser componets

Chris Hurd · October 18th, 2004, 09:04 AM

By the way this thread now contains all of the previous XL1 adapter topics merged into one. I left the largest one, Canon XL-1 Relaylens intact for your research, but closed it in order to drive replies here, where they belong. Hope this helps,

Stephen Birdsong · October 18th, 2004, 10:52 AM

Cool, thanks chris!

stephen

Bob Hart · October 18th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Ray. I appreciate where you are coming from.

I suggest using the cheaper lens to establish the working principle then each player, if they want to take it to the next stage of image quality to then go for the more expensive lens once they have established their rig works and they feel comfortable spending more on it.

I used the 25mm Cosmicar C-Mount lens for 8 years for stringer TV news assignments on a 16mm film camera. It is of better image quality than some of the more modern security camera offerings which was why I suggested people chase them secondhand. They should be relatively cheap. The image shakes a little when you move the focus barrel but once set and locked in an adaptor it won't be shaking because nobody will be moving it.

My work was accepted for broadcast by our national broadcaster so the lens can't have been all that bad.

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 01:38 PM

Bob,
Okay, your right. Maybe it will be a good idea to produce and sell 2 different 35mm solutions. One sheap, just to have ideas what 35mm DOF means. And another with same, or better quality like the P+S

Cosmicar lens sounds good. I think , this one was produced for 16mm, so the quality must be better than for security cameras. What F-stop is it? .

October 17th, 2004, 10:08 PM	#214
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	1500 grit ground glass hi everyone I made a static adapter with the optmo sigma 1500 ground glass and yes it was the best ground glass yet . I built the first adapter out of 52mm filter rings I can not get the lenses precise enough in the filter rings . I have just placed a order with thorlabs for a stackable lens tube and two retaining rings I will be using the 1500 grit ground glass and aplcx 50mm lens with a focal length of 60mm the tube will allow fine tuned focal length from the camera lens and the ability to fit the plcx directly on the ground glass. in this stackable tube we could build any combination we might need. http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=213&Product_ID=1481 http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?&DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=1132&Product_ID=36117 this is link to the static adapter made with optmo sigma ground glass http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor/35%20mm%20lens%20test%202.jpg

October 18th, 2004, 05:56 AM	#218
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	relay lens hi everyone I have been looking for this part for some time . thi s may be what we need to make a relay lenes it's a component for a stackable tube system from thorlabs with proper lenses and advice from optmo sigma .it has a focus adjustment of 1 1/2 inches . this could also allow this adapter to be fitted on any camera.I am sure we can make a great relay' for less tha a thousand dollars. heck this is laser stuff . It's made to be precision. I wish the parts were cheaper but I have wasted a lot of money on 5 devices agus, aldu,et al .It is time to build this out of quality components.. even the components will retain part of there value on the used market http://www.thorlabs.com/ProductDetail.cfm?DID=6&ObjectGroup_ID=214&Product_ID=1486

October 18th, 2004, 07:19 AM	#220
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	color correction this movie was made with a homemade adapter with condenser lens . {life agaiist memory}. color looked ok to me www.triggerstreet.com

October 18th, 2004, 08:25 AM	#221
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	thoughts while shaving I think there is a short window of use that needs to be considerd . the mini35 sells for 7,000- 10,000. this allows small ccd chips to attain shallow depth of field. the movie life againist memory was made with a less than $300 homemade attachment shallow depth of field was obtained ,and I think greatly improved look and feel of movie . all of these devices will degrade image even the holy grail mini35. my purchase of say $500 in laser componets would still have the value of the laser componets in 5years .in five years nobody will attach a device that degrades the image. when 35mm lenes can be attached to ccd that are 35mm . our device will not be used. but our components will still have value . If made from laser componets

October 18th, 2004, 09:04 AM	#222
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	By the way this thread now contains all of the previous XL1 adapter topics merged into one. I left the largest one, Canon XL-1 Relaylens intact for your research, but closed it in order to drive replies here, where they belong. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

October 17th, 2004, 12:13 PM	#211
Roger Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: toronto Posts: 99	Or duplicate the nested forums that we have for Quickstream and Firestore in the Direct-to-Disk (Tapeless) Recording Solutions forum. Create an XL1/XL2 sub-forum here and dump all the related threads into it. Forget about turning this thread into a single dogpile which would be a mess because I see this thread as a fresh start and prefer it clean and lean. My 2 yen.

October 17th, 2004, 01:09 PM	#212
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	ok, sounds good. Lets just make sure this stays the active thread and the others remain simply for reference. As soon as I get my check card in the mail (just moved state and changed banks) I will order those optics. What are other people doing? Does anyone have a 20-25mm 35mm still lens? If so, that would help us over our first obstacle, figuring out distance/focal length to capture 36x24mm frame. stephen

October 17th, 2004, 08:52 PM	#213
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	I am probably repeating what someone has already mentioned. If so please ignore with my apologies. One needs to know the flange to focal plane of the Canon XL1 lens 3 x CCD combination, or the distance the CCD "sees". My method for doing this would be to take the XL1 lens, set it towards a target and position a groundglass behind, then position the groundglass for the sharpest image, then find alternative prime lenses to do the same to find the flange face for that lens relative to the XL1. I would use this method as well as known distances and calculations as I don't know if there are other optics in the path from the XL1 mount through the prism to each of the CCDs in the camera. If they exist, then a simple measurement of the flange to focal plane of the alternative lens will not be valid. This may be difficult if the XL1 lens is a servo lens like most camcorders and cannot be set to a fixed known distance to target. Once this is established, then experiment onto a closer target the size of the ALDU preferred image frame size, by moving the lens forward of the flange face until the frame size match is found. Instead of messing with a groundglass and magnifier and lots of eyestrain, a single-chip security camera into a large TV display would be a handy alternative unless you use the XL1 camera itself. I don't know if it will operate without its own lens installed. I hope I am not throwing too many people off into a dead-end by this suggestion.

October 18th, 2004, 03:39 AM	#215
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Kevin. I jumped the gun and started posting on the new combined thread. Before you splash out and buy the expensive 25mm C mount lens, try your secondhand store and see if there is a Cosmicar 25mm C-Mount lens. That is what I tested with. You still have to have to C-Mount to XL1 adaptor. With that installed you could probably justify to a security company coming down to their shop and trying out a whole bucket full of their lenses on the cam in their shop. Alternatively the CS-Mount security camera lenses will mount to C-Mount with a plastic spacer. Both have the same thread and the spacers could be stacked until the back focus is right. They are also relatively cheap and are no loss if filed down to be thinner and it doesn't work first try. A 25mm C-Mount lens is also used on some video taps on CP16Rs.

October 18th, 2004, 04:28 AM	#216
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Why do you think P+S use a 850,- lens? Mount a security camera lenses on your XL and compare the picures with those from the Schneider lens. There are worlds between. If you wont, we also have security camera lenses, down to round 35,-$ but the pictures are so bad, that you also can use a very bad still GG. If you wont this, do it.

October 18th, 2004, 05:51 AM	#217
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	that's okay, Bob... actually I'd like to move all of it over there so we can all be on the same page.

October 18th, 2004, 06:10 AM	#219
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Laser works only on a fixed wavelength and have only a small beam. Photo optics must be color corrected and sharp not only in the middle. This why the constuction of a good photo/film lens have much more than two lenses. Here is a datasheet with a inside look of the Schneider Kreuznach lens. Look at the lens design: http://www.schneideroptics.com/oem/c-mount/visible_spectrum/pdf/xenon_095_25.pdf

October 18th, 2004, 10:52 AM	#223
Stephen Birdsong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 125	Cool, thanks chris! stephen

October 18th, 2004, 11:41 AM	#224
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Ray. I appreciate where you are coming from. I suggest using the cheaper lens to establish the working principle then each player, if they want to take it to the next stage of image quality to then go for the more expensive lens once they have established their rig works and they feel comfortable spending more on it. I used the 25mm Cosmicar C-Mount lens for 8 years for stringer TV news assignments on a 16mm film camera. It is of better image quality than some of the more modern security camera offerings which was why I suggested people chase them secondhand. They should be relatively cheap. The image shakes a little when you move the focus barrel but once set and locked in an adaptor it won't be shaking because nobody will be moving it. My work was accepted for broadcast by our national broadcaster so the lens can't have been all that bad.

October 18th, 2004, 01:38 PM	#225
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Bob, Okay, your right. Maybe it will be a good idea to produce and sell 2 different 35mm solutions. One sheap, just to have ideas what 35mm DOF means. And another with same, or better quality like the P+S Cosmicar lens sounds good. I think , this one was produced for 16mm, so the quality must be better than for security cameras. What F-stop is it? .