Microcrystalline Wax Techniques? at DVinfo.net

Jim Lafferty · October 15th, 2004, 10:05 AM

Hey,

I remember someone here claiming they'd used microcrystalline wax (henceforth mcw) in their adapter design, and I'm posting this here to push the idea a bit further, see what others have found, help perfect application techniques, consolidate info on materials and resources.

If memory serves, the idea was that mcw should provide the ideal optical qualities -- less lightloss than GG, with no visible grain.

I see that mcw is readily available online and at Perl. A few links that I've bookmarked, harvested from a google search, are these:

http://www.artstuf.com/waxes.html

http://www.spwax.com/spparaff.htm

this one,

and this one.

I'm thinking about application techniques, spurned on by comments from a user on another forum:

Quote:

You mention "the wax idea." I remember for rearscreen stop-motion, we made a wax screen by dissolving beeswax in solvent, and dipping glass in it. Is "the wax idea" like that? Beeswax is a microcrystalline wax that works very well for a screen.

Does anyone know offhand what sort of solvent would be used in this application, and how, once the wax is dissolved, it would be applied to the surface in an even fashion? I've asked the guy quoted above to respond, and hopefully he'll lend his insights to the project.

Meanwhile -- I've got an idea of using a small amount of wax spread out over the surface of a UV filter, and sitting the filter inside the interior pot of a double boiler -- the idea would be that you lightly coat the glass by shaving the wax with the pinhole side of a cheese-grater, the sprinklings falling to coat one side of the filter, and with the melitng point at 120, a double boiler should do the trick of getting it to create a thin surface. Take it out, sit it on a level surface while the wax is still hot, and let it set. Then screw another filter ontop of it so as to keep it clean/dustfree/free from scratches.

I've extended this discussion out to the users at The Wax Emulsions Forum for their ideas as well -- hopefully they'll kindly respond.

- jim

Jonny Dee · October 15th, 2004, 02:54 PM

Hi Jim
I did try it a while back and after hours of trying different dipping techiques between two pieces of glass I gave up. I may have needed clamps or something more than the tongs I was using but I couldn't avoid the glass slipping out of place and tiny bubbles forming inside the wax.

However as I was cleaning up I filled one of the pots that I was using to melt the wax with boiling water. And as the water cooled a beauitiful thin sheet of wax formed on top of the water. Figures huh. It was perfect!!! but as I was pulling it from the water it tore in too many spots to press on a lens. I tried the same thing a couple of times after but could replicate it.

But I did work with it enough to see that it does project a very nice bright grainfree image and would be the way to go if you could find a way to get rid of the bubbles.

I'm now thinking of going for the oscillating glass kit the Les Dit has but if someone can come up with a solution for the wax I think it would be best and most compact solution.

Jon

Jim Lafferty · October 15th, 2004, 10:44 PM

I'm going to get this one down.

I've been looking over directions for applying mcw to glass bulbs, found here -- no doubt it's more complicated than I have the resources for, but it points the way to some feasible techniques. I'm in talks with others who've done this sort of thing as well -- perhaps I can get someone with appropriate expertise here in NYC to make my waxed glass.

Any way you cut it I'm determined to get it done.

- jim

Bob Hart · October 15th, 2004, 11:02 PM

For the glass composite disk two x glass with wax layer, I used the 10% beeswax/paraffin wax mix, dip technique and spun the disks on a CD-R spindle under the wax to get the air out. Getting the spindle off after the wax sets without breaking glass is a bitch.

Don't remelt the wax to get parts of it off otherwise stresses get set up which will break your glass.

My problem with variable density due to varying wax layer thickness was related more to my imperfect finishing of the disks than the wax itself.

Temp must not be too high otherwise the beeswax will discolour. You also need bleached beeswax. I tried bleaching with peroxide. Didn't work as I could not get concentrated peroxide. I tried chlorine based bleach. Forget it.

Your pharmacist can order in sufficient bleached wax for optical applications.

I melted my wax in a small electric deep fryer/boiler which had temp control from below boiling point of water. Worked excellently and didn't burn the wax provided I was patient.

Jim Lafferty · October 15th, 2004, 11:54 PM

Thanks for the advice. Any reason you went with bees wax and not a true (synthetic) microcrystalline wax?

Bob Hart · October 16th, 2004, 02:53 AM

Jim.

It was a simple matter of what I could easiest get my hands on here in W.A.. I've since found out that fruit-packers here use microcrystalline wax on apples so I will look into that sometime.

The 10% formulation was one mentioned by Rai Orz I think so I just went with it. The image through the spinning disk seemed to have deeper contrast and was slightly sharper than the 5 micron but the flicker was totally unacceptable. Just how sharp it is I don't know.

It resolves up to the practical limit of the PD150 at just over 500 TV lines however it must still be soft as the digital image does not yield sharp vertical lines along the pixel edges. blow up a .jpg until the pixels show and the sharpness seems to be about two or three pixel resolution so I guess it falls over at about 600 TV lines.

Jim Lafferty · October 16th, 2004, 07:18 AM

Now that you mention it, I do remember your work in this area. OK, so we've got consistency issues to deal with...

Last night I emailed a lot of microwax companies, inquiring about their free samples -- many offer up to a pound to try out. I wrote describing our device vaguely and asked about ideal wax types, and their application. Hopefully I'll hear something back by early next week -- I'll let ya know.

- jim

Rai Orz · October 17th, 2004, 04:45 AM

movitube have a patent for her high res wax GG. I found it on:

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en

Jim Lafferty · October 18th, 2004, 12:51 AM

Seems a lot different than the device I'm building ;)

Bob Hart · October 18th, 2004, 03:23 AM

Looks like a unit comprising a sort of condenser both sides of the groundglass stuck together by the wax itself.

There's a few from here been down that route by grinding the flat side of the condenser then putting another on back to back. Then to erect the image, a schmidt? prism is added between the cam and groundglass/condenser unit.

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 04:13 AM

In the (german) patent text are realy ALL details for making the GG. incl. mixture, lens diop. and also the way to bring the wax between the lenses

Anders Floe · October 18th, 2004, 04:22 AM

Could you translate and post it for non-germans?

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 04:33 AM

I have no time, because it will cost me one or two days (my english is very "slow") . Maybe a translate software can do this.

Jim Lafferty · October 18th, 2004, 08:10 AM

Post a link to the patent and we'll babelfish it :D

Rai Orz · October 18th, 2004, 09:52 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Lafferty : Post a link to the patent and we'll babelfish it : -->>>

??? Sorry, but i had post it. Just read...

The drawings:

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdraw?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en

The Description:

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en

...and some more informations, all on th same side...

October 15th, 2004, 10:44 PM	#3
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	I'm going to get this one down. I've been looking over directions for applying mcw to glass bulbs, found here -- no doubt it's more complicated than I have the resources for, but it points the way to some feasible techniques. I'm in talks with others who've done this sort of thing as well -- perhaps I can get someone with appropriate expertise here in NYC to make my waxed glass. Any way you cut it I'm determined to get it done. - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 15th, 2004, 11:54 PM	#5
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Thanks for the advice. Any reason you went with bees wax and not a true (synthetic) microcrystalline wax? __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 16th, 2004, 07:18 AM	#7
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Now that you mention it, I do remember your work in this area. OK, so we've got consistency issues to deal with... Last night I emailed a lot of microwax companies, inquiring about their free samples -- many offer up to a pound to try out. I wrote describing our device vaguely and asked about ideal wax types, and their application. Hopefully I'll hear something back by early next week -- I'll let ya know. - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 18th, 2004, 12:51 AM	#9
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Seems a lot different than the device I'm building ;) __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 18th, 2004, 08:10 AM	#14
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Post a link to the patent and we'll babelfish it :D __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 15th, 2004, 02:54 PM	#2
Jonny Dee New Boot Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 16	Hi Jim I did try it a while back and after hours of trying different dipping techiques between two pieces of glass I gave up. I may have needed clamps or something more than the tongs I was using but I couldn't avoid the glass slipping out of place and tiny bubbles forming inside the wax. However as I was cleaning up I filled one of the pots that I was using to melt the wax with boiling water. And as the water cooled a beauitiful thin sheet of wax formed on top of the water. Figures huh. It was perfect!!! but as I was pulling it from the water it tore in too many spots to press on a lens. I tried the same thing a couple of times after but could replicate it. But I did work with it enough to see that it does project a very nice bright grainfree image and would be the way to go if you could find a way to get rid of the bubbles. I'm now thinking of going for the oscillating glass kit the Les Dit has but if someone can come up with a solution for the wax I think it would be best and most compact solution. Jon

October 15th, 2004, 11:02 PM	#4
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	For the glass composite disk two x glass with wax layer, I used the 10% beeswax/paraffin wax mix, dip technique and spun the disks on a CD-R spindle under the wax to get the air out. Getting the spindle off after the wax sets without breaking glass is a bitch. Don't remelt the wax to get parts of it off otherwise stresses get set up which will break your glass. My problem with variable density due to varying wax layer thickness was related more to my imperfect finishing of the disks than the wax itself. Temp must not be too high otherwise the beeswax will discolour. You also need bleached beeswax. I tried bleaching with peroxide. Didn't work as I could not get concentrated peroxide. I tried chlorine based bleach. Forget it. Your pharmacist can order in sufficient bleached wax for optical applications. I melted my wax in a small electric deep fryer/boiler which had temp control from below boiling point of water. Worked excellently and didn't burn the wax provided I was patient.

October 16th, 2004, 02:53 AM	#6
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Jim. It was a simple matter of what I could easiest get my hands on here in W.A.. I've since found out that fruit-packers here use microcrystalline wax on apples so I will look into that sometime. The 10% formulation was one mentioned by Rai Orz I think so I just went with it. The image through the spinning disk seemed to have deeper contrast and was slightly sharper than the 5 micron but the flicker was totally unacceptable. Just how sharp it is I don't know. It resolves up to the practical limit of the PD150 at just over 500 TV lines however it must still be soft as the digital image does not yield sharp vertical lines along the pixel edges. blow up a .jpg until the pixels show and the sharpness seems to be about two or three pixel resolution so I guess it falls over at about 600 TV lines.

October 17th, 2004, 04:45 AM	#8
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	movitube have a patent for her high res wax GG. I found it on: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en

October 18th, 2004, 03:23 AM	#10
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Looks like a unit comprising a sort of condenser both sides of the groundglass stuck together by the wax itself. There's a few from here been down that route by grinding the flat side of the condenser then putting another on back to back. Then to erect the image, a schmidt? prism is added between the cam and groundglass/condenser unit.

October 18th, 2004, 04:13 AM	#11
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	In the (german) patent text are realy ALL details for making the GG. incl. mixture, lens diop. and also the way to bring the wax between the lenses

October 18th, 2004, 04:22 AM	#12
Anders Floe Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Copenhagen Posts: 91	Could you translate and post it for non-germans?

October 18th, 2004, 04:33 AM	#13
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	I have no time, because it will cost me one or two days (my english is very "slow") . Maybe a translate software can do this.

October 18th, 2004, 09:52 AM	#15
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Lafferty : Post a link to the patent and we'll babelfish it : -->>> ??? Sorry, but i had post it. Just read... The drawings: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdraw?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en The Description: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE10240076&F=0&QPN=DE10240076&CY=ep&LG=en ...and some more informations, all on th same side...