Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Frank Ladner · November 11th, 2004, 11:54 AM

Excellent tips, Jim! Thanks for sharing your experience with us!

Good idea about the tape. Make sure you keep the glass submerged for a while, though. I found that when using scotch tape, tiny bubbles would come out of it and seep through the glass. So it may need to sit for a while.

Also, I tried electrical tape, and although it didn't melt, it didn't adhere very well to the glass when submerged.

Good idea about the egg-dipper device!

Bob Hart · November 16th, 2004, 11:07 AM

A thought came to mind. Maybe someone can think of a way to execute it.

It may be possible to place the groundglass in a shallow holder in a larger disk which is itself on a speed controllable drive, rotate the assembly, heat it up with a gluegun or hairdrier, spray or simply melt shaved wax onto the glass, then spin the excess off with higher rpm, blowing the wax runs across the radius paths with the gluegun, then withdraw the gluegun slowly enough allow the thing to cool gently.

This might yield a wax coat of even thickness without need of coverplate.

Frank Ladner · November 16th, 2004, 11:23 AM

That's a good idea, Bob! Seems like that would help with the bubble problem we run into.

However, one of the reasons I am wanting to keep the wax inbetween two pieces of glass is to keep the wax clean. That would be a problem if it where just a wax coating on glass. Just something to consider.

But maybe you can have the second glass cover be non-contact (ie. raised from the wax surface).

Hrm... wonder what I could use for a slow rpm drive...

Jim Lafferty · November 16th, 2004, 11:48 AM

It's a good idea, but it seems a bit too complex for the homegrown stuff.

I may have time later today or tomorrow to give my microwax another go -- I'll let you know how things went.

- jim

Frank Ladner · November 16th, 2004, 01:41 PM

I got the best wax/glass sandwich a couple of days ago - no bubbles in the view at all! However, the next day when I wanted to go out and shoot some stuff it had done something funny. The wax looked as if it pulled away from one side of the glass. It wasn't stored in a hot location or anything. Not sure at all why it did that. It didn't effect the image that much, until you pointed it at something bright.

Has this happened to anyone else?

Bob Hart · November 17th, 2004, 06:03 AM

It's likely one or both of the glasses warped during heating and bent back afteer cooling causing the delamination. Thinner glass which can be held bent by the wax adhesion might solve it.

Did you remount your wax glass in a metal frame after making it. If so, that may also had had something to do with it. I would use three small drops of resilient glue to immobilise the gg and leave the clamping ring a quarter turn loose.

Slightly divergent, I changed my method of dressing the oharadisks in the groundglassing tumbler to mounting them with wax to the center of a larger glass disk which fits in the rear of the tumbler. I was originally using the large disk as a dressing surface and mounting the oharadisks in a rolling thick metal holder with the wax and rolling the small disk across the larger one.

The larger disk had a AO5 finish from previous grindings upon it. I placed it on the stove (ceramic cooktop) set the heat to low, placed the oharadisk on top in center then dropped a few wax shavings in the center hole of the oharadisk. The wax melted and crept out to the circumference with not one bubble. At face to face glass contact, the wax sheet is too thin as a projection surface alone, but there is an interesting effect.

The effect is to apparently smoothen or make finer, the existing groundglass texture and it becomes more transparent. I can't use it for image tests as the back of the big disk is also partially groundglassed and scratched and it is too thick anyway. Through the few transparent bits I can look through, it appears the combination of thin wax and one groundglass face and one smooth face, yields a workable finer texture than the thicker wax or groundglass alone. How it would hold up for resolution I don't know and I have not yet repeated the exercise. It might be worth a try if anyone else feels like making the effort. The A05 is a little too fine. I would start with a coarser grade finish and work down.

Frank Ladner · November 17th, 2004, 07:56 AM

I tried something similar when I was working with the WAO glass. I smeared petroleum jelly over the ground surface of the glass. All this did was make it transparent and thus unusable for catching intermediate images.

However, your idea of using wax - I don't see why it wouldn't work. In fact, wouldn't the melted wax distribute more evenly over the ground/diffuse glass as opposed to a clean glass surface?

Bob Hart · November 18th, 2004, 03:50 AM

I wonder whether it might enable a coarser gg to be used, the opaque wax smoothing out the image a little but also acting as a gg itself. The coarser grade finish would enable a measured wax thickness if two glass disks were kept hard together which would elimate the variable density problem for spinners. It may soften the image a little too much but that's the thought.

Frank Ladner · November 18th, 2004, 10:07 PM

That sounds like a good idea. I'd like to know the results if you try that! I envision it smoothing the image out (minimizing the grain).

Update:

I bought a couple of 2" x 2" picture frames from a local dollar store earlier today and made a really nice adapter out of them. What I was trying to do was get a larger area so that I wouldn't have to zoom in so much. (On the GL2, you get pretty noticeable vignetting once zoomed in, I think due to the stops lowering in telephoto.)

I haven't had a chance to shoot some daytime footage due to the time change (it's dark when I get off work), but I went ahead and shot some inside stuff. After I export the video footage, I plan on bringing it to my work computer on CD and putting it on my webserver there. I'll hopefully have something for you guys tomorrow!

Frank Ladner · November 19th, 2004, 08:38 AM

I have put up some framegrabs and sample footage here:

http://209.214.235.122/mwtest/

Contents (so far):
- 4 frame grabs (BMP)
- 2 video clips:
( 1 720x480 24p uncompressed - 168 MB )
( 1 352x240 30p uncompressed - 71 MB )

These are some big files, and I'm on a T1 line (1.5Mb/s) so I'm not sure how this'll do, especially with multiple connections, but we'll give it a try.

(Also: The two video clips are actually different shots - not just two versions of the same shot.)

Thanks!

Frank Ladner · November 19th, 2004, 11:56 AM

According to the log, I've had several downloads (mainly of the .BMP framegrabs). The big 168MB clip has been downloaded by a few different people already, so I'm glad to see that it's not completely choking.

I'm curious to know what transfer rate some of you are getting.

I plan on shooting some outside stuff this weekend. If there's a continued interest, and the server is handling things well for you guys, I'd be glad to post some more stuff.

Let me know.

Thanks!

Aaron Shaw · November 19th, 2004, 12:19 PM

I downloaded both clips and got a decent rate. I can't remember precisely though.

Anyway... both clips won't play on my computer. I'm not sure if it's just me or if the clips are corrupt etc. Could you check?

Jim Lafferty · November 19th, 2004, 01:00 PM

Just finished d/l'ing the smaller clip, and it played fine. Looks good! I'm getting 114k/sec down.

Today I'll have my first shot at re-attempting the microwax screen -- hopefully it will turn out as good as yours, Frank.

Thanks for sharing!

- jim

Aaron Shaw · November 19th, 2004, 01:03 PM

Frank, what method did you use to apply the wax?

How transparent is the final product and how thick?

I'm thinking about giving some fine waxed paper a try as an imaging plate... not sure how that will turn out but I'll post if anything decent comes from it.

Frank Ladner · November 19th, 2004, 02:06 PM

Glad they're downloading ok!

Aaron: Hrm...I tested them and they played ok. They may play a bit laggy on some computers since they're uncompressed, but they're not playing at all on your computer? Can you try maybe opening them in QuickTime? That's what I play them in here at work.

Jim: Thanks! Please keep us posted on how it goes!

About the setup:
Well, it's kinda funny. This time I just bought a couple of cheap picture frames and sorta did a rush-job on it.

Here's what I did:

- Formed an aluminum foil cup

(double-layered -and heavy-duty is best because it's easy for a
glass corner to puncture the foil, and you don't want a hot-wax leak)

- Created spacers

(( SCOTCH TAPE this time - not aluminum ))
This was done by folding the tape pieces longways, sticky side out. This was placed inbetween the edges of the glass pieces, except for the top side. The excess tape sticking out was folded back over. This formed somewhat of a seal, but mainly a spacer (albeit not-so-precise). I then put more tape around the edges.

- Melted the wax in a pot.

- Put the glass sandwich in the aluminum cup.

- Poured (carefully) the hot wax in the aluminum cup, making sure the glass was submerged.

- After that I held the cup with an oven mit, making sure the glass was standing straight up in the wax and that the bubbles were escaping.

- After it cooled a bit (the wax goes from clear to white), I began slowly peeling the aluminum foil from around the sides. I removed the wax (which was then in a mushy state) from around the glass and put it back in the pot.

- I cleaned the outsides of the glass and examined the wax layer to find that there was still a small bubble trapped inside.

- I taped the sides up some more and put a hair dryer to the glass, tilting it upright (open side on up) with the oven mit, allowing the bubble to move up and out.

(I really advise that you figure out a good way to seal your wax inside the glass so that you can simply re-melt it in cases like this. It's so much easier.)

I think that's about it. Let me know if I need to clarify anything.

November 19th, 2004, 08:38 AM	#55
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Sample Footage I have put up some framegrabs and sample footage here: http://209.214.235.122/mwtest/ Contents (so far): - 4 frame grabs (BMP) - 2 video clips: ( 1 720x480 24p uncompressed - 168 MB ) ( 1 352x240 30p uncompressed - 71 MB ) These are some big files, and I'm on a T1 line (1.5Mb/s) so I'm not sure how this'll do, especially with multiple connections, but we'll give it a try. (Also: The two video clips are actually different shots - not just two versions of the same shot.) Thanks!

November 11th, 2004, 11:54 AM	#46
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Excellent tips, Jim! Thanks for sharing your experience with us! Good idea about the tape. Make sure you keep the glass submerged for a while, though. I found that when using scotch tape, tiny bubbles would come out of it and seep through the glass. So it may need to sit for a while. Also, I tried electrical tape, and although it didn't melt, it didn't adhere very well to the glass when submerged. Good idea about the egg-dipper device!

November 16th, 2004, 11:07 AM	#47
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	A thought came to mind. Maybe someone can think of a way to execute it. It may be possible to place the groundglass in a shallow holder in a larger disk which is itself on a speed controllable drive, rotate the assembly, heat it up with a gluegun or hairdrier, spray or simply melt shaved wax onto the glass, then spin the excess off with higher rpm, blowing the wax runs across the radius paths with the gluegun, then withdraw the gluegun slowly enough allow the thing to cool gently. This might yield a wax coat of even thickness without need of coverplate.

November 16th, 2004, 11:23 AM	#48
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	That's a good idea, Bob! Seems like that would help with the bubble problem we run into. However, one of the reasons I am wanting to keep the wax inbetween two pieces of glass is to keep the wax clean. That would be a problem if it where just a wax coating on glass. Just something to consider. But maybe you can have the second glass cover be non-contact (ie. raised from the wax surface). Hrm... wonder what I could use for a slow rpm drive...

November 16th, 2004, 11:48 AM	#49
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	It's a good idea, but it seems a bit too complex for the homegrown stuff. I may have time later today or tomorrow to give my microwax another go -- I'll let you know how things went. - jim

November 16th, 2004, 01:41 PM	#50
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	I got the best wax/glass sandwich a couple of days ago - no bubbles in the view at all! However, the next day when I wanted to go out and shoot some stuff it had done something funny. The wax looked as if it pulled away from one side of the glass. It wasn't stored in a hot location or anything. Not sure at all why it did that. It didn't effect the image that much, until you pointed it at something bright. Has this happened to anyone else?

November 17th, 2004, 06:03 AM	#51
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	It's likely one or both of the glasses warped during heating and bent back afteer cooling causing the delamination. Thinner glass which can be held bent by the wax adhesion might solve it. Did you remount your wax glass in a metal frame after making it. If so, that may also had had something to do with it. I would use three small drops of resilient glue to immobilise the gg and leave the clamping ring a quarter turn loose. Slightly divergent, I changed my method of dressing the oharadisks in the groundglassing tumbler to mounting them with wax to the center of a larger glass disk which fits in the rear of the tumbler. I was originally using the large disk as a dressing surface and mounting the oharadisks in a rolling thick metal holder with the wax and rolling the small disk across the larger one. The larger disk had a AO5 finish from previous grindings upon it. I placed it on the stove (ceramic cooktop) set the heat to low, placed the oharadisk on top in center then dropped a few wax shavings in the center hole of the oharadisk. The wax melted and crept out to the circumference with not one bubble. At face to face glass contact, the wax sheet is too thin as a projection surface alone, but there is an interesting effect. The effect is to apparently smoothen or make finer, the existing groundglass texture and it becomes more transparent. I can't use it for image tests as the back of the big disk is also partially groundglassed and scratched and it is too thick anyway. Through the few transparent bits I can look through, it appears the combination of thin wax and one groundglass face and one smooth face, yields a workable finer texture than the thicker wax or groundglass alone. How it would hold up for resolution I don't know and I have not yet repeated the exercise. It might be worth a try if anyone else feels like making the effort. The A05 is a little too fine. I would start with a coarser grade finish and work down.

November 17th, 2004, 07:56 AM	#52
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	I tried something similar when I was working with the WAO glass. I smeared petroleum jelly over the ground surface of the glass. All this did was make it transparent and thus unusable for catching intermediate images. However, your idea of using wax - I don't see why it wouldn't work. In fact, wouldn't the melted wax distribute more evenly over the ground/diffuse glass as opposed to a clean glass surface?

November 18th, 2004, 03:50 AM	#53
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	I wonder whether it might enable a coarser gg to be used, the opaque wax smoothing out the image a little but also acting as a gg itself. The coarser grade finish would enable a measured wax thickness if two glass disks were kept hard together which would elimate the variable density problem for spinners. It may soften the image a little too much but that's the thought.

November 18th, 2004, 10:07 PM	#54
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	That sounds like a good idea. I'd like to know the results if you try that! I envision it smoothing the image out (minimizing the grain). Update: I bought a couple of 2" x 2" picture frames from a local dollar store earlier today and made a really nice adapter out of them. What I was trying to do was get a larger area so that I wouldn't have to zoom in so much. (On the GL2, you get pretty noticeable vignetting once zoomed in, I think due to the stops lowering in telephoto.) I haven't had a chance to shoot some daytime footage due to the time change (it's dark when I get off work), but I went ahead and shot some inside stuff. After I export the video footage, I plan on bringing it to my work computer on CD and putting it on my webserver there. I'll hopefully have something for you guys tomorrow!

November 19th, 2004, 11:56 AM	#56
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	According to the log, I've had several downloads (mainly of the .BMP framegrabs). The big 168MB clip has been downloaded by a few different people already, so I'm glad to see that it's not completely choking. I'm curious to know what transfer rate some of you are getting. I plan on shooting some outside stuff this weekend. If there's a continued interest, and the server is handling things well for you guys, I'd be glad to post some more stuff. Let me know. Thanks!

November 19th, 2004, 12:19 PM	#57
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	I downloaded both clips and got a decent rate. I can't remember precisely though. Anyway... both clips won't play on my computer. I'm not sure if it's just me or if the clips are corrupt etc. Could you check?

November 19th, 2004, 01:00 PM	#58
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Just finished d/l'ing the smaller clip, and it played fine. Looks good! I'm getting 114k/sec down. Today I'll have my first shot at re-attempting the microwax screen -- hopefully it will turn out as good as yours, Frank. Thanks for sharing! - jim

November 19th, 2004, 01:03 PM	#59
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Frank, what method did you use to apply the wax? How transparent is the final product and how thick? I'm thinking about giving some fine waxed paper a try as an imaging plate... not sure how that will turn out but I'll post if anything decent comes from it.

November 19th, 2004, 02:06 PM	#60
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Glad they're downloading ok! Aaron: Hrm...I tested them and they played ok. They may play a bit laggy on some computers since they're uncompressed, but they're not playing at all on your computer? Can you try maybe opening them in QuickTime? That's what I play them in here at work. Jim: Thanks! Please keep us posted on how it goes! About the setup: Well, it's kinda funny. This time I just bought a couple of cheap picture frames and sorta did a rush-job on it. Here's what I did: - Formed an aluminum foil cup (double-layered -and heavy-duty is best because it's easy for a glass corner to puncture the foil, and you don't want a hot-wax leak) - Created spacers (( SCOTCH TAPE this time - not aluminum )) This was done by folding the tape pieces longways, sticky side out. This was placed inbetween the edges of the glass pieces, except for the top side. The excess tape sticking out was folded back over. This formed somewhat of a seal, but mainly a spacer (albeit not-so-precise). I then put more tape around the edges. - Melted the wax in a pot. - Put the glass sandwich in the aluminum cup. - Poured (carefully) the hot wax in the aluminum cup, making sure the glass was submerged. - After that I held the cup with an oven mit, making sure the glass was standing straight up in the wax and that the bubbles were escaping. - After it cooled a bit (the wax goes from clear to white), I began slowly peeling the aluminum foil from around the sides. I removed the wax (which was then in a mushy state) from around the glass and put it back in the pot. - I cleaned the outsides of the glass and examined the wax layer to find that there was still a small bubble trapped inside. - I taped the sides up some more and put a hair dryer to the glass, tilting it upright (open side on up) with the oven mit, allowing the bubble to move up and out. (I really advise that you figure out a good way to seal your wax inside the glass so that you can simply re-melt it in cases like this. It's so much easier.) I think that's about it. Let me know if I need to clarify anything.