Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Aaron Shaw · October 20th, 2004, 12:27 PM

Jim that Renaissance wax stuff looks interesting. Has anyone tried this yet? Seems like it would be simple to spray, say, a UVFilter with this stuff to make a great "GG."

Rai Orz · October 20th, 2004, 01:27 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Lafferty : Do you submerge it entirely or just enough so that the wax begins to move up through the two sheets of glass? -->>>

Just enough so that the wax begins to move up.

I got this information from a former Bosscreen coworker.

He said, the glasses should be a little bit hotter than the the wax
(made with hot air) . And if the wax is between the glasses, you should leave it cooling as slowly as possible.

BTW: Bosscreen GG have many thicker wax layer than the Movietube.

Aaron Shaw · October 20th, 2004, 04:11 PM

Ok just curious:

For those of you who have used a bosscreen before, can you see through the screen? I'm just curious because I'm interested in the "Renaissance wax" but do not know, since it is clear apparently, if it will work. Help?

Jim Lafferty · October 20th, 2004, 10:02 PM

Look for Bosscreen images on eBay -- they're frosted in appearance.

I picked up some cheap, low temp micro-wax today -- normally used to enhance the longevity of paints -- at a Utrecht art supply shop in NYC. I'll be experimenting with it soon.

Aside from the convection/capillary application, I'm going to try using a hairdryer (basically a cheap heat gun) to apply this wax and see how far I can get.

Next on the shopping list is a glass cutter :)

- jim

Rai Orz · October 21st, 2004, 03:45 AM

Aron,
No, you can not see through the bosscreen. You see only lights, not details. Is look like sand blow glass or milk glass

Here is a good wai to test the GG grain:

Use a still camera 50mm lens, or better 35mm (i think everyone have those). Hold the GG to the sky (or a lamp) and look through the lens (lens camera mount side in a distance ~ 30mm to the GG).

Now you can see all the details your camera also will see.

Jonny Dee · October 21st, 2004, 05:49 AM

Aaron and Jim
I have something similar to that Renaissance wax called Conservators Wax that I picked up from a wood working store here in toronto. It comes in a semi-solidified form. Its about the consistancy of mayonaise or shortening.
While this made it easy to squeeze between two sheets of glass separated by something thin like tin foil or something, my concern was that any kind of heat inside the casing would cause the wax to melt and drip away.
But I did find it easier to work with than the melted solid MC wax.

Jon

Jim Lafferty · October 21st, 2004, 10:24 AM

Yeah, this is the trade-off/area of worry -- what may be easier to apply may not hold up to the test of time and production wear. That said, people seem to worry about their Bosscreens, but I can't imagine leaving my camera in frigid cold or blitering heat for any extensive period of time - wax or no.

I'm in need of more UV filters -- all mine are in various stages of experimental grind, or broken :D When I get over to B&H this week, I'll start experimenting with the glass and post my results if they prove favorable. If not, I'll be ordering MC wax in solid form and take it from there.

The capillary idea is tempting, but sounds to be quite the elaborate trick to reproduce in a conventional kitchen. I'm thinking of reaching out to a senior student or TA at a local university -- someone in the physics or chemistry dep't who I can quiz about fluid dynamics and any ideas they my have...

Anyone heard from Agus lately? To think, he kicked this off with a glue gun and sandpaper, and look how far we've come!

- jim

Aaron Shaw · October 21st, 2004, 11:52 AM

Sound interesting Johnny. I think I'm going to go down to the store and get myself a filter and some similar wax to experiment with today. I'll have to see if I can find something similar to what you found.

I'm personally not very worried about the Rennaisance Wax melting and/or loosing its form. The description seems to suggest that this is some pretty darn intense stuff (museum coating after all). Problem is I don't have any.

Frank Ladner · October 26th, 2004, 06:24 PM

Hey guys!

Been a while since I last posted anything.

I'm glad to see there's still some experimenting with wax going on.

I just wanted to mention that my last few wax sandwiches were made from very cheap glass from picture frames. I picked up some square ones and some round ones (99 cents each, and they were a good diameter - 52mm) at a nearby Hobby Lobby.

What Rai mentioned about submerging the whole sandwich (2 pieces of glass w/ spacers inbetween) is exactly how I made mine. Keep the heat going long enough while it is submerged to give the little bubbles time to squeeze up and out from between the glass. Also, if you are using tape, try to stay away from any paper type stuff like scotch tape because bubbles will come from it and go between the glass.

One more thing: I never let the wax harden _completely_ before removing the glass. I let it get to the soft/mushy state and then take it out. At this point you don't have to worry about bubbles, and it is a whole lot easier than trying to cut it from completely hardened wax, at which point you'd have to worry about cracking the glass.

Hope this helps! Thanks for letting the rest of us know your progress, guys!

Jim Lafferty · October 27th, 2004, 11:37 AM

WB Frank. Care to share some footage with your adapter for others here to see? Also, what wax type did you use and which source did you use to purchase it?

Thanks,

- jim

Frank Ladner · October 27th, 2004, 12:20 PM

Thanks Jim!

I got my microcrystalline wax sample from Strahl & Pitsch:
http://www.spwax.com

I posted some still frames a while back, but it is now sortof a requirement (and understandably) to post uncompressed motion footage.

Within the next week or so I will get some footage and host it here from my work computer. We're on a T1. Not the fastest thing in the world, but it should work fairly well if my computer and web server (free from analogx.com) can handle it.

Jim Lafferty · October 27th, 2004, 01:38 PM

Great! Thanks, Frank!

Jim Lafferty · November 9th, 2004, 03:30 PM

Questions for Frank, or anyone with good wax experience:

1) How close are the two plates of glass to be placed? 1a) Did you just run aluminum foil at its edges in one layer density for a spacer, or...?

2) How did you keep your setup level, and the glass consequently perpendicular? Could you be very detailed in your setup process, please?

3) How long do you let the wax heat up? In other words, once it has melted and moves up to the top of the glass, do you keep the oven on and let it sit for some time, and if so -- what's the approximate time for doing so?

4) Cooling -- just let it cool on its own slowly, or do you chill it/blow it with cool air?

I got my S&P wax recently and am playing with it today -- playing in a very non-committed fashion. I'm shaving wax into small bits with a cheese grater, placing these bits ontop of a UV filter, and then placing this inside an aluminum foil take-out container from a local restaurant.

Heating it in a toaster oven to 200 degrees, the wax melts to a clear liquid in about 3 minutes.

The first run of this had some solids (salt/grit/hair) that I used a pencil tip to remove from the wax -- it also had some spots where the wax didn't take to the glass' surface. I'm now re-applying more wax and letting it cool on its own time.

This go is just to experiment quickly to see what sort of tolerances there are (and aren't) with the wax, the glass (Hoya UV filters), and other random variables. All told it's a far less forgiving endeavor than aluminum oxide :D

- jim

Frank Ladner · November 9th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Hi Jim!

Sorry about the lack of video footage, but I have not forgotten!

Anyhow, to answer your questions:

1) I used two thin strips of standard aluminum foil (not the heavy-duty stuff) folded over, making sure there were no creases/wrinkles in them.

2) I wasn't too precise in this area. As far as keeping the glass sandwich vertical (so bubbles would escape), I just propped the glass against a makeshift aluminum foil arm that was attached to the top of the aluminum cup.

3) Here I didn't really use any specific time. I just watched the surface of the wax above the glass (which should be completely submerged in the wax) and waited until there were no more little bubbles floating up. Then I gave it some more time after that to be sure before turning the heat off.

4) I just let the wax cool on its own. However, I didn't let it harden completely. Once it was in a soft/mushy state, I began to clean the wax away from the outside.

Hope this helps!

Jim Lafferty · November 11th, 2004, 11:24 AM

Tried my first somewhat serious attampt at making a wax glass yesterday, with mixed results. The oven still works, at least :D

The glass I've got as a result has a few bubbles, but the most notable problem with it is that I used a pair of tongs to dip the glass into the wax -- where the pressure of the tongs was placed on the glass' surface is a perceptible ring in the wax. So...

Tomorrow I'm going to change the setup and have another go at this. I plan on covering the exterior of the glass with Scotch tape, leaving tabs of tape running past the edge of the glass, so that when the wax hardens, I'll merely need to pull the tape of the glass and the wax will come with it.

Also, instead of using tongs, I'll be making a small wire device similar to the egg dippers you'd use as a kid for dying eggs -- this way I plan on submerging the entire glass, hanging the "dipper" over the edge of the melting pot, and waiting until I feel the bubbles have all risen to the top.

I can't seem to induce the capillary action. I'm using round pieces of glass because the few glass companies I've called have said they will not cut circular glass to my required dimensions (49mm). Resorting to submerging the glass entirely seems to be my best bet.

Tip on using aluminum foil spacers -- fold the aluminum over twice, and use a rolling pin to flatten it perfectly.

Tip on cleaning the glass -- use a razor blade and de-natured alcohol.

- jim

October 20th, 2004, 10:02 PM	#34
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Look for Bosscreen images on eBay -- they're frosted in appearance. I picked up some cheap, low temp micro-wax today -- normally used to enhance the longevity of paints -- at a Utrecht art supply shop in NYC. I'll be experimenting with it soon. Aside from the convection/capillary application, I'm going to try using a hairdryer (basically a cheap heat gun) to apply this wax and see how far I can get. Next on the shopping list is a glass cutter :) - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 21st, 2004, 10:24 AM	#37
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Yeah, this is the trade-off/area of worry -- what may be easier to apply may not hold up to the test of time and production wear. That said, people seem to worry about their Bosscreens, but I can't imagine leaving my camera in frigid cold or blitering heat for any extensive period of time - wax or no. I'm in need of more UV filters -- all mine are in various stages of experimental grind, or broken :D When I get over to B&H this week, I'll start experimenting with the glass and post my results if they prove favorable. If not, I'll be ordering MC wax in solid form and take it from there. The capillary idea is tempting, but sounds to be quite the elaborate trick to reproduce in a conventional kitchen. I'm thinking of reaching out to a senior student or TA at a local university -- someone in the physics or chemistry dep't who I can quiz about fluid dynamics and any ideas they my have... Anyone heard from Agus lately? To think, he kicked this off with a glue gun and sandpaper, and look how far we've come! - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 27th, 2004, 11:37 AM	#40
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	WB Frank. Care to share some footage with your adapter for others here to see? Also, what wax type did you use and which source did you use to purchase it? Thanks, - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

November 9th, 2004, 03:30 PM	#43
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Questions for Frank, or anyone with good wax experience: 1) How close are the two plates of glass to be placed? 1a) Did you just run aluminum foil at its edges in one layer density for a spacer, or...? 2) How did you keep your setup level, and the glass consequently perpendicular? Could you be very detailed in your setup process, please? 3) How long do you let the wax heat up? In other words, once it has melted and moves up to the top of the glass, do you keep the oven on and let it sit for some time, and if so -- what's the approximate time for doing so? 4) Cooling -- just let it cool on its own slowly, or do you chill it/blow it with cool air? I got my S&P wax recently and am playing with it today -- playing in a very non-committed fashion. I'm shaving wax into small bits with a cheese grater, placing these bits ontop of a UV filter, and then placing this inside an aluminum foil take-out container from a local restaurant. Heating it in a toaster oven to 200 degrees, the wax melts to a clear liquid in about 3 minutes. The first run of this had some solids (salt/grit/hair) that I used a pencil tip to remove from the wax -- it also had some spots where the wax didn't take to the glass' surface. I'm now re-applying more wax and letting it cool on its own time. This go is just to experiment quickly to see what sort of tolerances there are (and aren't) with the wax, the glass (Hoya UV filters), and other random variables. All told it's a far less forgiving endeavor than aluminum oxide :D - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

November 11th, 2004, 11:24 AM	#45
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Tried my first somewhat serious attampt at making a wax glass yesterday, with mixed results. The oven still works, at least :D The glass I've got as a result has a few bubbles, but the most notable problem with it is that I used a pair of tongs to dip the glass into the wax -- where the pressure of the tongs was placed on the glass' surface is a perceptible ring in the wax. So... Tomorrow I'm going to change the setup and have another go at this. I plan on covering the exterior of the glass with Scotch tape, leaving tabs of tape running past the edge of the glass, so that when the wax hardens, I'll merely need to pull the tape of the glass and the wax will come with it. Also, instead of using tongs, I'll be making a small wire device similar to the egg dippers you'd use as a kid for dying eggs -- this way I plan on submerging the entire glass, hanging the "dipper" over the edge of the melting pot, and waiting until I feel the bubbles have all risen to the top. I can't seem to induce the capillary action. I'm using round pieces of glass because the few glass companies I've called have said they will not cut circular glass to my required dimensions (49mm). Resorting to submerging the glass entirely seems to be my best bet. Tip on using aluminum foil spacers -- fold the aluminum over twice, and use a rolling pin to flatten it perfectly. Tip on cleaning the glass -- use a razor blade and de-natured alcohol. - jim __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

October 20th, 2004, 12:27 PM	#31
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Jim that Renaissance wax stuff looks interesting. Has anyone tried this yet? Seems like it would be simple to spray, say, a UVFilter with this stuff to make a great "GG."

October 20th, 2004, 01:27 PM	#32
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Lafferty : Do you submerge it entirely or just enough so that the wax begins to move up through the two sheets of glass? -->>> Just enough so that the wax begins to move up. I got this information from a former Bosscreen coworker. He said, the glasses should be a little bit hotter than the the wax (made with hot air) . And if the wax is between the glasses, you should leave it cooling as slowly as possible. BTW: Bosscreen GG have many thicker wax layer than the Movietube.

October 20th, 2004, 04:11 PM	#33
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Ok just curious: For those of you who have used a bosscreen before, can you see through the screen? I'm just curious because I'm interested in the "Renaissance wax" but do not know, since it is clear apparently, if it will work. Help?

October 21st, 2004, 03:45 AM	#35
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Aron, No, you can not see through the bosscreen. You see only lights, not details. Is look like sand blow glass or milk glass Here is a good wai to test the GG grain: Use a still camera 50mm lens, or better 35mm (i think everyone have those). Hold the GG to the sky (or a lamp) and look through the lens (lens camera mount side in a distance ~ 30mm to the GG). Now you can see all the details your camera also will see.

October 21st, 2004, 05:49 AM	#36
Jonny Dee New Boot Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 16	Aaron and Jim I have something similar to that Renaissance wax called Conservators Wax that I picked up from a wood working store here in toronto. It comes in a semi-solidified form. Its about the consistancy of mayonaise or shortening. While this made it easy to squeeze between two sheets of glass separated by something thin like tin foil or something, my concern was that any kind of heat inside the casing would cause the wax to melt and drip away. But I did find it easier to work with than the melted solid MC wax. Jon

October 21st, 2004, 11:52 AM	#38
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Sound interesting Johnny. I think I'm going to go down to the store and get myself a filter and some similar wax to experiment with today. I'll have to see if I can find something similar to what you found. I'm personally not very worried about the Rennaisance Wax melting and/or loosing its form. The description seems to suggest that this is some pretty darn intense stuff (museum coating after all). Problem is I don't have any.

October 26th, 2004, 06:24 PM	#39
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Hey guys! Been a while since I last posted anything. I'm glad to see there's still some experimenting with wax going on. I just wanted to mention that my last few wax sandwiches were made from very cheap glass from picture frames. I picked up some square ones and some round ones (99 cents each, and they were a good diameter - 52mm) at a nearby Hobby Lobby. What Rai mentioned about submerging the whole sandwich (2 pieces of glass w/ spacers inbetween) is exactly how I made mine. Keep the heat going long enough while it is submerged to give the little bubbles time to squeeze up and out from between the glass. Also, if you are using tape, try to stay away from any paper type stuff like scotch tape because bubbles will come from it and go between the glass. One more thing: I never let the wax harden _completely_ before removing the glass. I let it get to the soft/mushy state and then take it out. At this point you don't have to worry about bubbles, and it is a whole lot easier than trying to cut it from completely hardened wax, at which point you'd have to worry about cracking the glass. Hope this helps! Thanks for letting the rest of us know your progress, guys!

October 27th, 2004, 12:20 PM	#41
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Thanks Jim! I got my microcrystalline wax sample from Strahl & Pitsch: http://www.spwax.com I posted some still frames a while back, but it is now sortof a requirement (and understandably) to post uncompressed motion footage. Within the next week or so I will get some footage and host it here from my work computer. We're on a T1. Not the fastest thing in the world, but it should work fairly well if my computer and web server (free from analogx.com) can handle it.

October 27th, 2004, 01:38 PM	#42
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Great! Thanks, Frank!

November 9th, 2004, 03:59 PM	#44
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Hi Jim! Sorry about the lack of video footage, but I have not forgotten! Anyhow, to answer your questions: 1) I used two thin strips of standard aluminum foil (not the heavy-duty stuff) folded over, making sure there were no creases/wrinkles in them. 2) I wasn't too precise in this area. As far as keeping the glass sandwich vertical (so bubbles would escape), I just propped the glass against a makeshift aluminum foil arm that was attached to the top of the aluminum cup. 3) Here I didn't really use any specific time. I just watched the surface of the wax above the glass (which should be completely submerged in the wax) and waited until there were no more little bubbles floating up. Then I gave it some more time after that to be sure before turning the heat off. 4) I just let the wax cool on its own. However, I didn't let it harden completely. Once it was in a soft/mushy state, I began to clean the wax away from the outside. Hope this helps!