Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Jim Lafferty · February 15th, 2005, 11:24 AM

Frank,

I've got no real experience with glass cutters and until the link you provided, wasn't able to find any that cut holes smaller than 3", so I can't really weigh in with advice.

I'm curious -- in the new test footage you've got, is the microwax screen a blend of microwax and paraffin? If so, at what approximate proportions?

Thanks,

- jim

Keith Kline · February 15th, 2005, 11:28 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Jim and others,

I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size).

Would this work:
http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp
?

Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this:
http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html
(scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.") -->>>

Hey Frank. I fogot to post about this before but i ordered a circle cutter last week. I think it was less than $30 shipped to me. It was late last week so I expect it to arrive anyday now. I'll let everyone know how it works when it arrives. I'll post some pics and such. If i remember it will cut from 3/8" to 6" diameter.

BTW the footage looks really impressive. It's inspired me and I'm gonna finally order my wax so hopefully by the time i get it i'll have the circle glass cutter and the new and improved vacuum chamber done.

Frank Ladner · February 15th, 2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

I'm curious -- in the new test footage you've got, is the microwax screen a blend of microwax and paraffin? If so, at what approximate proportions?

Jim:
It's 100% microcrystalline. I tried paraffin by itself one time, but it seemed to have more noticeable grain, so I didn't try to mix them because I thought it would lessen the fine-grain qualities of the microcrystalline wax. (Althought it would likely help in the melting-point department.)

Keith:
Thank you for the comments! Glad you liked the footage! On the glass cutter, please let us know how it turns out! Where did you find one for around $30? I'm really interested in that!

Jim Lafferty · February 15th, 2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

On the glass cutter, please let us know how it turns out! Where did you find one for around $30? I'm really interested in that!

Seconded!

Keith Kline · February 15th, 2005, 06:27 PM

It was actually on ebay. Most of the ones the seller had we going for about 15-20 with 10 for shipping. I lucked out and actually got mine for 22 shipped. I'll find the user's info sometime this week. If i were you guys i might hold off on ordering one until mine arrives though because the seller had a little too many negative feedbacks for my tastes. I paid with paypal tho so even if he tried to jip me i can still get my money back if there is a problem.

Depending on how easy it is to use I'd be willing to cut some peices for people who don't want to buy one themselves. Like I said I'll post somemore info when it arrives.

Frank Ladner · February 15th, 2005, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Depending on how easy it is to use I'd be willing to cut some peices for people who don't want to buy one themselves. Like I said I'll post somemore info when it arrives.

Excellent, Keith! Looking forward to more info! Thanks!

Keith Kline · February 17th, 2005, 08:43 PM

Still waiting for the glass cutter. I ordered my wax last night and I'm getting 5 lbs. of it. I'll let everyone know when it arrives if it's promising or not. I'm gonna try building a new vacuum chamber to get rid of bubbles this weekend if I get a chance. Anyone else making progress with the wax technique?

Frank Ladner · February 18th, 2005, 11:38 AM

Thanks for the update, Keith!

I actually have a pretty decent adapter right now that I'm playing around with. I would like to make another attempt at achieving a thinner layer of wax, though. I can take my current glass + wax, heat it with a hairdryer, and set a weight on top (to compress the wax in the middle - squeezing the excess through the masking tape) and once it cools, I have a pretty thin layer, but eventually the glass pulls away from it.

Keith Kline · February 21st, 2005, 02:45 AM

So I'm still waiting for my glass cutter to arrive. I have a tracking number for the wax and it should be here next day or two. If the glass cutter doesn't show up tomorrow I'll be sending some emails.

Frank,
I was just checking out some of the clips you have on that page. They look really good. Do you have any pictures of the adapter and the set up you used? Or does anyone else?

Frank Ladner · February 21st, 2005, 07:34 AM

Keith,
Thanks for checking out the clips!

I'll try to take a few pictures of the adapter itself and upload them within the next couple of days. It is definately not the most professional-looking device you've ever seen. :-)

Justin Burris · February 22nd, 2005, 06:14 PM

Just thinking out loud here...

I was looking at the patent info for the movietube, and began wondering, has anyone tried sandwiching the wax between the flat sides of two pcx lenses?

Seems like it would fix the problem of glass distortion that has been mentioned in relation to using a vacuum, since the thick lenses are not going to bend the way a thin piece of filter glass would.

Does anyone see a problem with doing this? The only problem that comes to mind is that I would probably want to use coated lenses, and if the wax gets on the coated outside part of either lens, getting if off without scratching the coating could be tough. Denatured alcohol maybe?

Frank,
For the problem of the wax pulling away from the glass, do you think that putting some sort of advesive on the surface of the glass, before applying the wax, would solve this? Or if that messes up the image, perhaps there is some way to glue the two pieces of glass together along the edges.

BTW, a big "Thank You" to everyone who is working on this. I wish I had the money to do endless tests like some of you have done. However, until I am able to contribute in that way, I will at least try to continue to contribute in this way.

Keith Kline · February 23rd, 2005, 01:53 AM

Okay after quite a while of waiting everything finally arrived. I got the wax monday night and the glass cutter arrived today.

First off be very careful about buying a circle cutter on ebay. I just emailed the guy about it, but the auction was basically false. The guy always has a ton of these things on and I understand when you are selling multiples you'd just use the same pic for each one, but mine looks totally different. The colors are different on the unit, but i can live with that. The problem i have is that the auction was for a "brand new" glass circle cutter. This one was far from new. It's all dinged up and there's a dent in the corner of the top. Anyway long story short... It does cut glass circles. I cut about 3 or 4 good ones tonight and i can't complain for 20 bucks, but be careful who ya get it from.

I'm planning on cutting as many circles as i can this week and gonna try to melt some wax and get some 'gg' made this weekend.

Frank:
You mentioned the test shots were with a thicker wax layer? What were you using to space it out for the one you used for the test shots?

Bob Hart · February 23rd, 2005, 06:33 AM

In the fruitgrowing industry there is used to assist preservation and presentation of CA stored fruit, microcrystalline wax in a solution form. I don't know whether it is a solution through being dissolved in a solvent or a water emulsion.

Apparently, it dries off initially in blown air and then in the dry air, characteristic of cold storage. This process gives apples their glossy polished appearance and stops them from going off.

It may be possible to use this material and spray it on a disk in thin layers to dry off and then successively respray over the top until an acceptable opacity is achieved. If the material is a water emulsion then there should not be a problem with re-dissolving the previously sprayed layer.

I haven't seen the stuff but will be trying to get my greasy hands on some.

Spraying a coating on a disk may not confer a robust layer and placing another glass over it may cause problems of bubbles and patches which already plague the wax gg development direction.

An alternative to protecting the wax layer against dust attraction or injury during fitting of the disk might be to spray a thin top coat of clear hair lacquer or clear estapol if this is not antagonistic to the wax and does not flake off or crack.

--- Probably another dead-end suggestion but there it is.....

Frank Ladner · February 23rd, 2005, 08:25 AM

Justin,
I had thought of the possibility of sandwiching wax between the two condensers, but simply for reasons of having less glass to deal with. HOWEVER, your idea of doing it this way to have the wax enclosed in thicker glass that wouldn't warp is EXCELLENT! Thank you for that suggestion! Definately worth a try.

Keith,
Glad to hear the circle cutter works!

Quote:

Frank:
You mentioned the test shots were with a thicker wax layer? What were you using to space it out for the one you used for the test shots?

For spacers, I have used either aluminum foil strips or masking tape. The aluminum strips can be folded to give varying degrees of thickness. The masking tape is inherently thicker, and less desirable because it is somewhat porous and allows little trapped bubbles to seep inbetween the glass layer.

Bob,
Some sort of spray-on solution would likely give an even spread, but I wonder (as you mentioned) if it would be thick enough to prevent the hotspot problem. If it would work, and a layer of protective glass could be placed above it (so that the bubbles wouldn't be a problem), or as you suggest, a clear protective coating - that would be ideal.

Frank Ladner · February 23rd, 2005, 08:39 AM

I was thinking about the idea Justin mentioned about sandwiching the glass between the condenser lenses, and it may have some other benefits besides not warping:

- Wouldn't the thicker glass act as a sort of insulation/heatsink that would further lessen the chances of the wax melting? I'm not entirely sure about this, but it seems about right.

- The only place dust/debris could get would be on either of the curved sides of the condensers, which shouldn't matter much since the camera would be focused on the wax layer in the middle.

February 15th, 2005, 06:27 PM	#155
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Glass Cutter It was actually on ebay. Most of the ones the seller had we going for about 15-20 with 10 for shipping. I lucked out and actually got mine for 22 shipped. I'll find the user's info sometime this week. If i were you guys i might hold off on ordering one until mine arrives though because the seller had a little too many negative feedbacks for my tastes. I paid with paypal tho so even if he tried to jip me i can still get my money back if there is a problem. Depending on how easy it is to use I'd be willing to cut some peices for people who don't want to buy one themselves. Like I said I'll post somemore info when it arrives.

February 17th, 2005, 08:43 PM	#157
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Still Waiting Still waiting for the glass cutter. I ordered my wax last night and I'm getting 5 lbs. of it. I'll let everyone know when it arrives if it's promising or not. I'm gonna try building a new vacuum chamber to get rid of bubbles this weekend if I get a chance. Anyone else making progress with the wax technique?

February 21st, 2005, 02:45 AM	#159
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Update So I'm still waiting for my glass cutter to arrive. I have a tracking number for the wax and it should be here next day or two. If the glass cutter doesn't show up tomorrow I'll be sending some emails. Frank, I was just checking out some of the clips you have on that page. They look really good. Do you have any pictures of the adapter and the set up you used? Or does anyone else?

February 23rd, 2005, 01:53 AM	#162
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Finally Okay after quite a while of waiting everything finally arrived. I got the wax monday night and the glass cutter arrived today. First off be very careful about buying a circle cutter on ebay. I just emailed the guy about it, but the auction was basically false. The guy always has a ton of these things on and I understand when you are selling multiples you'd just use the same pic for each one, but mine looks totally different. The colors are different on the unit, but i can live with that. The problem i have is that the auction was for a "brand new" glass circle cutter. This one was far from new. It's all dinged up and there's a dent in the corner of the top. Anyway long story short... It does cut glass circles. I cut about 3 or 4 good ones tonight and i can't complain for 20 bucks, but be careful who ya get it from. I'm planning on cutting as many circles as i can this week and gonna try to melt some wax and get some 'gg' made this weekend. Frank: You mentioned the test shots were with a thicker wax layer? What were you using to space it out for the one you used for the test shots?

February 15th, 2005, 11:24 AM	#151
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	Frank, I've got no real experience with glass cutters and until the link you provided, wasn't able to find any that cut holes smaller than 3", so I can't really weigh in with advice. I'm curious -- in the new test footage you've got, is the microwax screen a blend of microwax and paraffin? If so, at what approximate proportions? Thanks, - jim

February 15th, 2005, 11:28 AM	#152
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Jim and others, I am interested in a circular glass cutter to experiment with spinning ground glass (as opposed to spinning plastic CDs). I actually need a glass circle cut around 4" or less (doesn't have to be CD-size). Would this work: http://www.glassmart.com/circmate.asp ? Also, for those interested in cutting diameters less than 3", look at this: http://www.cathedralstainedglass.com/glasscutters.html (scroll down to the bottom - "Fletcher Small Circle Cutter - The best for cutting 1/2" to 5" diameter circles.") -->>> Hey Frank. I fogot to post about this before but i ordered a circle cutter last week. I think it was less than $30 shipped to me. It was late last week so I expect it to arrive anyday now. I'll let everyone know how it works when it arrives. I'll post some pics and such. If i remember it will cut from 3/8" to 6" diameter. BTW the footage looks really impressive. It's inspired me and I'm gonna finally order my wax so hopefully by the time i get it i'll have the circle glass cutter and the new and improved vacuum chamber done.

February 18th, 2005, 11:38 AM	#158
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Thanks for the update, Keith! I actually have a pretty decent adapter right now that I'm playing around with. I would like to make another attempt at achieving a thinner layer of wax, though. I can take my current glass + wax, heat it with a hairdryer, and set a weight on top (to compress the wax in the middle - squeezing the excess through the masking tape) and once it cools, I have a pretty thin layer, but eventually the glass pulls away from it.

February 21st, 2005, 07:34 AM	#160
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Keith, Thanks for checking out the clips! I'll try to take a few pictures of the adapter itself and upload them within the next couple of days. It is definately not the most professional-looking device you've ever seen. :-)

February 22nd, 2005, 06:14 PM	#161
Justin Burris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 54	Just thinking out loud here... I was looking at the patent info for the movietube, and began wondering, has anyone tried sandwiching the wax between the flat sides of two pcx lenses? Seems like it would fix the problem of glass distortion that has been mentioned in relation to using a vacuum, since the thick lenses are not going to bend the way a thin piece of filter glass would. Does anyone see a problem with doing this? The only problem that comes to mind is that I would probably want to use coated lenses, and if the wax gets on the coated outside part of either lens, getting if off without scratching the coating could be tough. Denatured alcohol maybe? Frank, For the problem of the wax pulling away from the glass, do you think that putting some sort of advesive on the surface of the glass, before applying the wax, would solve this? Or if that messes up the image, perhaps there is some way to glue the two pieces of glass together along the edges. BTW, a big "Thank You" to everyone who is working on this. I wish I had the money to do endless tests like some of you have done. However, until I am able to contribute in that way, I will at least try to continue to contribute in this way.

February 23rd, 2005, 06:33 AM	#163
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	In the fruitgrowing industry there is used to assist preservation and presentation of CA stored fruit, microcrystalline wax in a solution form. I don't know whether it is a solution through being dissolved in a solvent or a water emulsion. Apparently, it dries off initially in blown air and then in the dry air, characteristic of cold storage. This process gives apples their glossy polished appearance and stops them from going off. It may be possible to use this material and spray it on a disk in thin layers to dry off and then successively respray over the top until an acceptable opacity is achieved. If the material is a water emulsion then there should not be a problem with re-dissolving the previously sprayed layer. I haven't seen the stuff but will be trying to get my greasy hands on some. Spraying a coating on a disk may not confer a robust layer and placing another glass over it may cause problems of bubbles and patches which already plague the wax gg development direction. An alternative to protecting the wax layer against dust attraction or injury during fitting of the disk might be to spray a thin top coat of clear hair lacquer or clear estapol if this is not antagonistic to the wax and does not flake off or crack. --- Probably another dead-end suggestion but there it is.....

February 23rd, 2005, 08:39 AM	#165
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	I was thinking about the idea Justin mentioned about sandwiching the glass between the condenser lenses, and it may have some other benefits besides not warping: - Wouldn't the thicker glass act as a sort of insulation/heatsink that would further lessen the chances of the wax melting? I'm not entirely sure about this, but it seems about right. - The only place dust/debris could get would be on either of the curved sides of the condensers, which shouldn't matter much since the camera would be focused on the wax layer in the middle.