Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Laurence Maher · August 5th, 2004, 07:54 AM

I was gonna have him help me put together a camera for us, but I have delayed with the news that what we will basically be creating is right around the corner for about 3 k.

Man, 4-5 stops just isn't enough. Need more for film look. I imagine the new SI and Summix cameras will top that greatly.

Interesting thread about the dvx-100 mod. Looks like he's getting as many as 10 stops out of it and just over 720 lines. Maybe he could do a re-wire of the XL-2 and get something really great.

But I'm interested in the real deal. Personally, I was a bit surprised to see everyone slapping money down on these current cameras. Not good enough yet, and stuff is right around the corner. I've been reading all along, but got a bit tired of everyone kind of taking their own directions (a bit impatient I think). Plus, there's not a lot I can contribute at this point, unless someone assigns me some homework.

So what did you mean by the stuff you can reveal source wise? Cameras? Computers? That Firewire B sounds pretty good being that I just bought a brand new Mac G5 with FCP HD.

So,

How's things?

Wayne Morellini · August 5th, 2004, 11:24 PM

Things are a bit better, healthwise things are picking up.

10 stops, yes, if you don't rely on the auto controls you can get much more out of the Pana.

I keep asking questions about the altasens and how to read the specs of sensors, but get no answers. So I can't really tell you how much better they get, but I don't expect any better then CCD cameras anyway.

Gigabyte sent me stuff on their new range of MB with firewire B. Not usefull for us b8ut a good indicator of where the market is headed. There will be dual Gigabit E ITX like boards comming to.

The distractions are good and bad We need to support the Rob's to see real software action that jell's everything together, otherwise we can split into numerouse camps without the software to make it work properly. Eventually the softweare can support more cameras and interfaces, but thats eventually. We can't expect everything now, because it simply is not there yet.

I'm not up to assigning some homework at thge moment either, but recently I asked for voluteers to research stuff in Obin's thread, but nobody came forward. When it comes time to do it now, they will need to do it anyway, but because there won't be time they probably won't be able to do it good enough to get the best equipment. That's the problem with now people, they need future people to do the ground work for them to jump into. But if they didn't do something 90% of the people would leave through lack of interest.

Thanks

Wayne.

Ben Syverson · August 5th, 2004, 11:36 PM

My position (having "purchased" a camera) is that I want to let Sumix (and whoever else is interested) know what my needs are before they come out with the next-generation camera. Otherwise, the cameras "around the corner" won't do you much good, because the software will be insufficient, the interface won't be suited to what we're doing, whatever.

For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;)

My feeling is that if you're going to sit back and wait for the good stuff just around the corner, your wait will be never ending, because there's always better stuff around the corner.

Also, unlike consumer camera manufacturers, the companies we're dealing with (SI, Sumix) seem fine with letting us "trade up" for a price as new models come out. So if you buy now, you won't necessarily have to buy a whole new camera when the next-gen comes out...

- ben

Laurence Maher · August 7th, 2004, 12:09 AM

Ya, I wasn't trying to bust on anyone in particular. But let's face it's not the easiest to get agreeance throughout. What I mean by not buying now doesn't neccessarily mean I'm waiting for something that will go directly into the G5. As long as the files are easily transferable. If they're not, well, there's not much I can do about it other than keep reiderating I in particular have a Mac and need something for Mac. I'm willing to get a mini-PC for capture and all that as long as I know it's gonna work and work right. I don't want to spend forever trying to get my camera I bought now to actually work the way I want it to. I'm not a tech-head like a lot of these guys. My stuff is gonna have to be plug and play, or I can't afford it. The last movie I shot took forever (over 4 years to complete through editing) due to the lack of user friendly equipment. Hell, if I'm gonna do that again, I might as well just sit back and write scripts for 3 years until a much more user friendly camera/capture interface comes out and then shoot/edit my next feature in the 4th year. If you can afford/ are able to get the current stuff to work well, then go for it. Unfortunately, I can't. Man, that's why I bought a Mac. I've only had it for 1 month and already realize why PCs have been labeled as standing for "Piece of Crap."

Wayne Morellini · August 7th, 2004, 12:54 AM

Well I'm glad to hear it, people talked to them before and they showed virtually no interest in doing better software then, that is why the Rob's are doing it.

Don't let it put you off buying new cameras though, the software canbe added latter at anytime, until then you are an experimenter though, as long as it is coming in some reasonable time. I do think, businesswise, it was odd that the capture card/software businesses did not want to do this themselves, it would be far easier and cheaper for their capture realtime experienced programmers to quickly add an interface for us, we have enough people here to test/prototype the interface for them. It's been up to us to show the way in this fledgeling relationship, until there is enough people for them to take notice of.

Sensible people wait for sufficient stuff around the corner, get it and go on, because that is all they need, not all these 1/2inch 720p wonders with moderate performance. Harsh, but true, but why complian that is all we have at the moment. The present cameras are just not enough, if we hacked a JVC GRDV3000 (that would be difficult), we could probably get within coo-ee, of them. If the Altasens are as good as they say they are, for many they will be more than sufficent. Until then most of us might aswell hangoff to see what is coming around the corner before the altasens release, it is the only sensible thing toi do, if you are going to get an Altasens straight off the bat. Still if Rob's software is only a few months, and your not an experimenter, it is probably better holding off until then.

Rob Scott · August 8th, 2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Laurence Maher wrote:
As long as the files are easily transferable. If they're not, well, there's not much I can do about it other than keep reiderating I in particular have a Mac and need something for Mac.

As far as I am concerned, it's critical to support the Mac, since FCP is one of the most affordable NLE's that supports 10-bit depth. I'm planning to add QuickTime output as soon as possible for this reason.

The ObscuraConvert app will be released under the GPL (as free/open-source) so that anyone can add support for whatever file formats they like. It will also be cross-platform.

Laurence Maher · August 10th, 2004, 08:00 PM

Bless you Rob!!!!!!

That's really great news. People like you are why there's still hope for guys like me.

Rob Scott · August 11th, 2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Laurence Maher wrote:
That's really great news. People like you are why there's still hope for guys like me.

Well, you're welcome sir!

Keep in mind that while "Convert" will be GPL'd, I will be keeping the "Capture" app (the camera's "firmware") closed-source for now. I've put a lot of effort into it and hope to sell it (for a reasonable price, of course) to people who are building cameras.

Laurence Maher · August 12th, 2004, 07:08 AM

Gotchya,

Sounds good!

Joshua Starnes · August 14th, 2004, 01:25 PM

For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;)

EPIX offers a CameraLink to Gigabit Ethernet adaptor. Has anyone looked at this? As far as I can tell (particularly for Mac owners) this would probably be a cheaper way to go than buying a FrameGrabber card.

Rob Scott · August 14th, 2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Joshua Starnes wrote:
...the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;)

I believe that Joshua is planning to build a Windows PC just for the camera itself, and then transfer the files to the Mac, running the Convert app (which will hopefully be cross-platform by that time).

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 01:08 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : OK, I have found out more about the wireless version of USB, which maybe the USB3 I saw in the article at the register (or the enquirer) sometime ago.

It is meant to go beyond 400Mb/s (b for bit).

There is some movement in the wideband comms sector, but unfortunately I closed the other article and haven't got a link here.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1530522,00.asp
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1530755,00.asp
http://www.uwbforum.org/membership/membership.asp

Ahh here we are, and even firewire wireless demonstration (after how many years??)

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1528297,00.asp

Periphials by years end.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1634014,00.asp

Other highspeed (540Mbs IEEE 802.11n) wireless stuff:
http://www.convergedigest.com/WiFi/w...e.asp?ID=11995

Well, looks like you can wireless a few USB/Firewire cameras before we know it. -->>>

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Just did another swing pass the tape issue, no luck yet expensive for the sort of rates we want. But found this reference for 150 Terabytes of video for Lord of the Rings (how much of the budget did they blow on that??, and was that at only 2Mp or 8??)). That is why I wanted to look at tape so you could backup a couple of Terabyte of storage cheaply (compared to buying X number of drives) (The articles still say that tape is half the cost per mb (and 30 year shelf life), but I think that is compared to expensive server disk setuips rather tthan cheaper consumer drives).

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1012597,00.asp -->>>

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 02:20 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : I forgot to mention, if anybody has cameras they can post I will be discussing it on the Technical thread.
-->>>

Laurence Maher · August 23rd, 2004, 04:17 AM

Wow, that wireless stuff would be wonderful!!! Hope it all gets up and running soon.

Wayne Morellini · August 23rd, 2004, 10:10 AM

Thanks Laurence, it starts arriving at the end of the year, but when it will be supported for us is another thing (very short range I think as well).

August 5th, 2004, 07:54 AM	#61
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	I was gonna have him help me put together a camera for us, but I have delayed with the news that what we will basically be creating is right around the corner for about 3 k. Man, 4-5 stops just isn't enough. Need more for film look. I imagine the new SI and Summix cameras will top that greatly. Interesting thread about the dvx-100 mod. Looks like he's getting as many as 10 stops out of it and just over 720 lines. Maybe he could do a re-wire of the XL-2 and get something really great. But I'm interested in the real deal. Personally, I was a bit surprised to see everyone slapping money down on these current cameras. Not good enough yet, and stuff is right around the corner. I've been reading all along, but got a bit tired of everyone kind of taking their own directions (a bit impatient I think). Plus, there's not a lot I can contribute at this point, unless someone assigns me some homework. So what did you mean by the stuff you can reveal source wise? Cameras? Computers? That Firewire B sounds pretty good being that I just bought a brand new Mac G5 with FCP HD. So, How's things?

August 5th, 2004, 11:24 PM	#62
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Things are a bit better, healthwise things are picking up. 10 stops, yes, if you don't rely on the auto controls you can get much more out of the Pana. I keep asking questions about the altasens and how to read the specs of sensors, but get no answers. So I can't really tell you how much better they get, but I don't expect any better then CCD cameras anyway. Gigabyte sent me stuff on their new range of MB with firewire B. Not usefull for us b8ut a good indicator of where the market is headed. There will be dual Gigabit E ITX like boards comming to. The distractions are good and bad We need to support the Rob's to see real software action that jell's everything together, otherwise we can split into numerouse camps without the software to make it work properly. Eventually the softweare can support more cameras and interfaces, but thats eventually. We can't expect everything now, because it simply is not there yet. I'm not up to assigning some homework at thge moment either, but recently I asked for voluteers to research stuff in Obin's thread, but nobody came forward. When it comes time to do it now, they will need to do it anyway, but because there won't be time they probably won't be able to do it good enough to get the best equipment. That's the problem with now people, they need future people to do the ground work for them to jump into. But if they didn't do something 90% of the people would leave through lack of interest. Thanks Wayne.

August 5th, 2004, 11:36 PM	#63
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	My position (having "purchased" a camera) is that I want to let Sumix (and whoever else is interested) know what my needs are before they come out with the next-generation camera. Otherwise, the cameras "around the corner" won't do you much good, because the software will be insufficient, the interface won't be suited to what we're doing, whatever. For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;) My feeling is that if you're going to sit back and wait for the good stuff just around the corner, your wait will be never ending, because there's always better stuff around the corner. Also, unlike consumer camera manufacturers, the companies we're dealing with (SI, Sumix) seem fine with letting us "trade up" for a price as new models come out. So if you buy now, you won't necessarily have to buy a whole new camera when the next-gen comes out... - ben

August 7th, 2004, 12:09 AM	#64
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Ya, I wasn't trying to bust on anyone in particular. But let's face it's not the easiest to get agreeance throughout. What I mean by not buying now doesn't neccessarily mean I'm waiting for something that will go directly into the G5. As long as the files are easily transferable. If they're not, well, there's not much I can do about it other than keep reiderating I in particular have a Mac and need something for Mac. I'm willing to get a mini-PC for capture and all that as long as I know it's gonna work and work right. I don't want to spend forever trying to get my camera I bought now to actually work the way I want it to. I'm not a tech-head like a lot of these guys. My stuff is gonna have to be plug and play, or I can't afford it. The last movie I shot took forever (over 4 years to complete through editing) due to the lack of user friendly equipment. Hell, if I'm gonna do that again, I might as well just sit back and write scripts for 3 years until a much more user friendly camera/capture interface comes out and then shoot/edit my next feature in the 4th year. If you can afford/ are able to get the current stuff to work well, then go for it. Unfortunately, I can't. Man, that's why I bought a Mac. I've only had it for 1 month and already realize why PCs have been labeled as standing for "Piece of Crap."

August 7th, 2004, 12:54 AM	#65
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Well I'm glad to hear it, people talked to them before and they showed virtually no interest in doing better software then, that is why the Rob's are doing it. Don't let it put you off buying new cameras though, the software canbe added latter at anytime, until then you are an experimenter though, as long as it is coming in some reasonable time. I do think, businesswise, it was odd that the capture card/software businesses did not want to do this themselves, it would be far easier and cheaper for their capture realtime experienced programmers to quickly add an interface for us, we have enough people here to test/prototype the interface for them. It's been up to us to show the way in this fledgeling relationship, until there is enough people for them to take notice of. Sensible people wait for sufficient stuff around the corner, get it and go on, because that is all they need, not all these 1/2inch 720p wonders with moderate performance. Harsh, but true, but why complian that is all we have at the moment. The present cameras are just not enough, if we hacked a JVC GRDV3000 (that would be difficult), we could probably get within coo-ee, of them. If the Altasens are as good as they say they are, for many they will be more than sufficent. Until then most of us might aswell hangoff to see what is coming around the corner before the altasens release, it is the only sensible thing toi do, if you are going to get an Altasens straight off the bat. Still if Rob's software is only a few months, and your not an experimenter, it is probably better holding off until then.

August 10th, 2004, 08:00 PM	#67
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Bless you Rob!!!!!! That's really great news. People like you are why there's still hope for guys like me.

August 12th, 2004, 07:08 AM	#69
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Gotchya, Sounds good!

August 14th, 2004, 01:25 PM	#70
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	For example, Steve at SI has made it clear that the Altasens model they have coming out will be CameraLink-only at first (not Gigabit Ethernet, which will come later). So good luck with that on your new G5. ;) EPIX offers a CameraLink to Gigabit Ethernet adaptor. Has anyone looked at this? As far as I can tell (particularly for Mac owners) this would probably be a cheaper way to go than buying a FrameGrabber card.

August 16th, 2004, 01:08 AM	#72
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : OK, I have found out more about the wireless version of USB, which maybe the USB3 I saw in the article at the register (or the enquirer) sometime ago. It is meant to go beyond 400Mb/s (b for bit). There is some movement in the wideband comms sector, but unfortunately I closed the other article and haven't got a link here. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1530522,00.asp http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1530755,00.asp http://www.uwbforum.org/membership/membership.asp Ahh here we are, and even firewire wireless demonstration (after how many years??) http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1528297,00.asp Periphials by years end. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1634014,00.asp Other highspeed (540Mbs IEEE 802.11n) wireless stuff: http://www.convergedigest.com/WiFi/w...e.asp?ID=11995 Well, looks like you can wireless a few USB/Firewire cameras before we know it. -->>> <<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : Just did another swing pass the tape issue, no luck yet expensive for the sort of rates we want. But found this reference for 150 Terabytes of video for Lord of the Rings (how much of the budget did they blow on that??, and was that at only 2Mp or 8??)). That is why I wanted to look at tape so you could backup a couple of Terabyte of storage cheaply (compared to buying X number of drives) (The articles still say that tape is half the cost per mb (and 30 year shelf life), but I think that is compared to expensive server disk setuips rather tthan cheaper consumer drives). http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1012597,00.asp -->>>

August 16th, 2004, 02:20 AM	#73
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Morellini : I forgot to mention, if anybody has cameras they can post I will be discussing it on the Technical thread. -->>>

August 23rd, 2004, 04:17 AM	#74
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Wow, that wireless stuff would be wonderful!!! Hope it all gets up and running soon.

August 23rd, 2004, 10:10 AM	#75
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Thanks Laurence, it starts arriving at the end of the year, but when it will be supported for us is another thing (very short range I think as well).