Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

[Wayne Morellini]

Hi Guys

As far as I know both SI and Sumix sell single quantities (people here have bought). SI is very expensive, but cameras were better.

Micron is better than Ibis5, probably, especially for cheap picture. But IBIS5a version is better than poor Ibis5. Problem is if manufacturer does not implement properly like Rai has, then performance is poor. There is a couple of improvements in implementation, one is using external ADC circuit, and the others, I think Rai may have talked about on thread, but not certain.

The originally author (see the first post here for link to their thread) was negotiate with Sumix for an order of custom made ideal cameras, Sumix went ahead on their own and are still trying to develop ideal camera, at cheap price ;) I have corresponded with Sumix recently and camera is still coming, but they spend time getting camera right.

High speed is virtually more costly than anything else. There has been a few groups come here and post about their hi-speed camera, so i is worth a look (FF has high speed Lupa as well, and Steve commented on which was best).


Their are alternatives out there, but hard to find, and people have to be creative.

Difference between CMOS and CCD, yes there appears to be a difference in how CMOS and CCD respond to image. But as far as I can tell we are talking about higher range (latitude) and less noise, and less blooming, on good CMOS. But if you get good CCD you should be able to get similar, but higher price, higher power consumption, and more support circuitry.

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

Have been looking over the documents of various sensors. Micron's usually quote db signal to noise ratio figures in the low forties, and usually don't give "well capacity" values (likely to be much smaller than Ibis). Some Micron Sensors give a 43db+ SN ratio. This is equal to 6-7+ upper bits of usable image given ideal lighting with 0 gain.


Here are some new cameras, with programmable RISC processor and FPGA (there is HD 16:9 1080p version too):

http://www.imperx.com/lynx_overview.html


Thanks

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

Popped over to hdfor indies to find out what they are doing and found an incredible lot of reports from NAB, well worth the read. There is also a link to an article that talks about the site owners wrokflow solution.

http://www.hdforindies.com/

On this, Toms also has another NAB report about film special effects and rather cool chroma-keying for the low end.

http://www20.tomshardware.com/busine...421/index.html

[Rob Lohman]

Interesting camera with a RISC proc. on there. Probably expensive though.
Would be great if you could hook a harddisk directly to it and program the
device to write directly to that.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Rob Lohman

Interesting camera with a RISC proc. on there. Probably expensive though.
Would be great if you could hook a harddisk directly to it and program the
device to write directly to that.

Yes, just been over at Keith's thread talking about that, basically you might be able to cut the cost of the computer if GigaE, Firewire interface is available, with access to programmable external controls (serial) preview video (as available on some cameras) and lens control port. So this compensates for the price of the camera. If the camera is cheap enough there maybe no penalty for doing it this way.

This reminds me. The Sumix camera might do most of this, with compression, so maybe you could program that to record to Gigabit external drive caddy ;)

I wonder if anybody will volunteer to program that one.

Good to see you back Rob, I am about to cut down my involvement. Please feel free to post any new interesting technical information here that might help. Anybody else please also feel free to post, this is archival for tech links and tech discussion for the core projects here.

Thanks

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

Keith Wakeham's - Development Platform for DIY cameras:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=42653

Rai Orz's - Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=34339

As I can not update the links to the threads on the first post, I would like to welcome anybody with a new project thread to post a link to it here (using the title above will make it easy to find in searches). All I ask is that the project be related to development of the home made HD camera systems discussed in the threads in the first post, and be an native Alternative Imaging Methods forum project (or very closely related exception like the Drake).

Thanks

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

VIA has released full source of it's drivers for the Linux community to use. Such a thing should allow significant speed improvements (particularly GPU programming) on supported motherboards.

[Wayne Morellini]

http://www.popwire.com/product_info....&products_id=2


Toshiba 3D screen (much better than stereo vision and similar to an idea I wanted to do nearly 22+ years ago):

http://www.physorg.com/news3773.html

Well that is about all the camera related links open in my browser, I, hopefully, God willing, pop in every now and again with updates. I am needing to rationalise my time into more constructive areas at the moment.


Thanks

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

Here is the release of the latest video game software for anybody that maybe interested in a project based on them. Other stuff follows. They are built for many times the performance of the PC, are cheap, and should be simpler to program (providing you find a way to program like a Linux implementation) at the low level required for good real-time embedded capture software. At the moment it might be possible to program existing systems, but it would be stretching it a bit. PS2 might not be fast enough (and would be a bit difficult) and has custom Hard drive adaptor (I think), game-cube is slightly more powerful, but does not have standard interfaces to use for camera, Xbox is just big (might as well get the next slightly smaller version). The new versions, unfortunately, are 6 months to a year away, which gives enough time to write software but no time for people to get a an unofficial third party software solution to market for you to program with ;) One that I have looked at myself is the Playstation Portable, it has duel 300Mhz processors plus enhanced version of the PS2 software:

PS3, two views
http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8720
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23293

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8719
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05...y_unveils_ps3/

The Graphics chip
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23277

XBOX2
http://spong.com/detail/editorial.asp?eid=10109290

Revolution
http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8731

The 'competition' releases some more cameras, lets see if these ones have uncompressed component out, like the others:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/


Another 3D wide veiw format display technology (one day you maybe filming for this).
http://www.physorg.com/news3273.html

Another Atomic battery, that will give decades of life. The previouse one, from he 80's, had 17 year life and was safe enough o use in a camera (it dissapeared):
http://www.primidi.com/2005/05/11.html

The $100 laptop, nothing flash (will have full colour display) but good enough for bottom end camera (if programmed in machine code or etc):
http://www.vnunet.com/news/1163045

Another one, more expensive, maybe less powerful, but Tablet computer:
http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp...p?storyid=3755


This one sounds like it was written by one of my critics:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23285

Yeah, right ;)


Technical Personal safety tip, don't spray insecticide around a working Pentium4 capture computer:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23304

[Wayne Morellini]

I am not trying to discourage anybody from buying, even though I buy another camera, but advising people that want their own project of options, before I disappear for another couple of weeks. I have deliberately talked with only a couple of people here about working with them (actually that was the other way about). While it is disappointing that more people don't use my thread for their own technical discussions and miss information, I don't really feel that angry about it {:| .

The PS3 has Gigabit Ethernet port. I can guess that it is likely that you can real-time it and all the USB ports at maximum data-rate. There will, undoubtedly, be some custom hardware modification and special configurations required to do this (imagine a USB2.0 raid ;). If you wanted anything above a normal bayer 1080 camera you are going to have to look at adding a special port, or combining outputs from the spare usb's, so not for the faint hearted. But it is just an idea for people to think about. I believe Obin has done a great job, despite what I think otherwise (I don't need the red wine, I am so tired).

Originally Posted by Ronald Biese

please start no cold war please

with the new playstation is was mentioned there is a camera port,
firewire I do guess... but how long will it be to have an open OS on the new PS, who knows, the harddisk is swappable...sorry good red french wine...
looks way cool to me...guess and such a machine some sorry Linux could even be done some editing, better as any laptop today and cheaper

Powering the PS3 on the go, I said it was only suitable for big ENG (news type, shoulder mounted) cameras, until the smaller version comes out (or the reduced size circuit board revising, probably within two years). I actually think he Revolution is a better target (though too far away). I think I read it is compatible extension on the game cube architecture (but far to early to tell) so theoretically you might be able to do some development on the cube (but far too sloppy/unreliable of a way to develop).

For the PS2 there was the official Linux computer kit, it is expected that the PS3 will also see some type of OS. As I have told you, there is a free PC based development system and community for the PS2, I expect something similar to become available for PS3. There are a number of Linux ports for all the current generation consoles, and probably unofficial development systems for all of them. Eventually I suspect these sorts of system will be available for some or all the new consoles. You don't need to be an official developer to make programs that run on them, at this moment the hairs on some executives head in Japan is going to be trying to go through the roof read this. But this information is for the benefit of future people with future projects, a seed of an idea, not for myself, otherwise iIwould not mention it. I normally would wait to see what development options come up after the product is on the market, to avoid interference with the development.

The PS2 was clearly ahead of any PC of it's time, the problem was that they rolled out the design and prototypes well over a year, I think, ahead of the hardware, so they were dated and the PC started to catch up in 6 months (Ronald may disagree, I still say the xbox is more powerful than the PS2 Ron ;). This one is way way way ahead in comparison, but still that gap between when design is completed and when it rolls out. With the xbox they had the thing out within months of the GPU being completed, that gave a huge margin between PS2 tech and the xbox tech . With xbox2 the margin could be double in the PS3's favour. In most of these things it is a matter of doing the maths, how much data, how many cycles per bit of data, how many cycles should be required per bit of data, what sort of known wastage and hindrances (that is where the experience really comes in), then test to see how close to that performance you can get. It's all, reasonably, simple if you know what your doing, but most of us don't.

[Wayne Morellini]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23788

2GHz, claims 10W.

[Wayne Morellini]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06...e_hdd_roadmap/


Stacks for articles at Seagate:

http://www.seagate.com/newsinfo/news...byte_life.html


Windows patch for HD acceleration (GPU load sharing):

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/08/ms_dxva_patch/

[Régine Weinberg]

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...422#post323422

not cross-posting
ronald

[Wayne Morellini]

Ha, what a laugh, that will cost oodles. Might as well get the new Drake ;)

Sumix where are you.

Technical opinion given. I was wondering how things would get funded.


Technical announcement:

Linux will ship with Playstation 3 hard drive as standard. Gamespot has an article that also talks about the PS3's use for HD video editing as an example etc.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06...s_6127219.html

Apple says they are going with Intel processors now. I say, what is the real story. If you wanted low powered, high performance Power CPU's, they are being developed for Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony CELL, so obviously IBM is still developing the processor. What does Intel have that IBM doesn't? Should have gone with the most powerful CPU of it's day (1080's early 90's) instead of the Power CPU, the ARM, but wait Intel manufactures some of the fastest of those (and Samsung).

Here is some brochures of the new Sony HC1/A1 HDV cameras, that might have recordable uncompressed component out. I have seen screen grabs and the cameras are surprisingly good for what they are. Colour Balance, Latitude and maybe dual slope are better than expected. Maybe not good enough for an expensive feature, but for docos and low budget an interesting option. I have discussed this elsewhere in the HC1 A1 forums.

Under $2000 maybe down to $1500 on the street.
http://hdvforever.com/hdv/hdrhc1/default.htm

$3.5K
http://hdvforever.com/hdv/hvra1j/default.htm

The issue now is trying to put together a low cost component solution, all the component to HDSDi stuff is gong to cost more than the camera. So I was thinking of an cheap component recording solution through an existing capture package (Maybe Cinerralla). Even consumer grade HD recording cards as a starter. Anybody know of anything.


Thanks Ronald.

Wayne.

[Régine Weinberg]

dear Wayne

everybody knows
below Apples GUI eq Aqua there is a GNU UNIX/LINUX called MACH,
it is free and can run quite everywhere for shure on Intel. Aqua is
derived from COCOA or vice versa, comming from NEXTSTEP, yes Steve Job and his Next Cube, a great machine 20 years too early. From Nextstep there is a free GUI GNUstep... that all is Linux fun. I'm running Mach, that is OS 10X nucleaus with GNUstep on AMD ...

So what IBM has what Intel will never have....low power CPU
Intel is in the MHZ Race as AMD,
MIPS, ARM, VIA that is maybe a way to go.

Sumix where are you a good one

Playstation with LINUX that's the way to go
Cinerella on it and the renderfarm editing suite is there

Great