Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

[Steve Nordhauser]

OK Wayne, since you asked, the sensors are in and a bunch of cameras are in production. If you order 20 or more it might take us a few weeks but the Altasens cameras are available.

There is basic support on the Epix frame grabbers, same on the gigabit ethernet interface and the Coreco X64 CL iPro will be ready in a few weeks.

Conact me off the list if you want more information - this is just an announcement.

Thanks,
Steve

[Rob LaPoint]

Steve, if you would'nt mind refreshing me, have you sucessfully captured 1080@24 over the GIG-E?

[Steve Nordhauser]

Rob,
We have already done that with the SI-3300 at 10 bits per pixel. It shouldn't be a problem with the SI-1920HD at 12 bits - even upacked that is just below the 100MB/sec max rate with our custom driver. 12 bits packed is only 75MB/sec.

[Obin Olson]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : I'm still around. Things are happening. Things will be announced. Instead of "out of touch" think "low pro

file". -->>>

Low-profile..i kinda feel the same way Steve ;)

BTW I think my banging on the Epix hall of doors is about to pay off...

[Wayne Morellini]

I've just finished a five day (and night) stiint recovering my system and data. Cheap, plentiful and freeware software, and web compatibility is just not enough to put up with this PC stuff.. I was planing on waiting to see the dual processor ITX server board (in a few months), but now I am wondering if I should just go Mac, unfortunately the only cheap hi-speed power PC system (the XBOX2) won't run the Mac OS ;)

I know a few people here are big on Mac, so any advice on moving to the MAC for Cinema Camera video editing (and capture) on the cheap? How would the workflow/capture (I assume none for Cinema cameras), speed, memory, disk, cameralink/GIGE/USB2 etc be organised?

If anybody would like to discuss the generalities of going from PC to Mac and Mac SD/HD video capture and editing that would be fine too.


Wayne.

[Laurence Maher]

If you remember, last year at this time I was in terrible editing hell. I had bought 3 PC's in an attempt to edit one feature, due to the fact that they kept giving me problems as they went on, and eventually would fail. Last summer I bit the bullet and bought a Mac Dual Gig OSX system. And I can safely say that my editing troubles for the most part have dissappeared. I simply can't believe how much time I wasted using PC's but it is a lesson I will NEVER FORGET. Macs are wonderful. They are fast. They are reliable. They are user friendly. And if you buy Final Cut Pro HD, you have opportunities beyond what you imagined. Want to shoot DV? Set it for DV. Want SD? Set for SD. Want HD, set for HD and it's all over firewire. That's right, 4:2:2 1080p 24p . . . clean . . . over firewire. The FCPHD codecs are wondeful, and have revolutionized cheap quality HD editing. Firewire drives are cheap now, about a buck a gig. I've got 500 gigs of mirrored (yes backed up) space to do with what I want. If I need another 250 gig, that's 250 bucks. Not a bad freaking deal. Haven't messed much with SDI or AKA board or gigabit etherrnet, but I'm convined that a mac can do it.

My bottom line is this. Yes, you'll spend a bit more off the start. You'll want an HD display or something, and getting the Mac OSX isn't necessarily cheap. Butt I got myself completely set up from around 8k. That's complete with 500 gigs storage, 500 backup. Two 23 inch HD displays that share the desktop between the 2 of them (I drag from one screen to the next). I've got duel 2 gig speed and mega ram. The machine crashes maybe once a week . . . maybe if it's been on the whole time. It's fast efficient editing that YOU CAN RELY ON. You don't have to open up your computerr guts unless another drive goes in. In one word, Mac is AWESOME.

To think of the years I wasted (around 5 years) listening to all these people claiming PC's are more cost efficient. NO THEY'RE NOT. Becasue by the time you spend the amount of hours fixing they're problems, you've wasted days, weeks, months, and in my case, years. Compared to mac, they suck.

If you're a technician and like repairing things and the challenges of cheap technology, well okay. Otherwise . . . MAC FOR IT!!!!!

You have my word it's the best investment you'll ever make.

By the way, I got mine through my father with a student faculty discount. Mac offers a nice student faculty discount. Like 20 percent. I bought FCP HD for half off. Just about all software is half off.

Find someone going to school and have them buy it for you much cheaper.

P.S. You don't need the newest Mac either, get the next one down from the one that came out most recently. They're cheaper and tried and tested with all the bugs already tested and fixed.

MAC MAC MAC MAC MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


. . . mac?

[Laurence Maher]

Okay, so you're saying the altezens chip cameras are being put together as we speak? And with all the bells and whistles, 4:4:4, global shutter, 24p +, 1920 X 1080, 12 bit, 64 Mhz, 75-100Mbps? Yes?

Lens mount?

Camera interface? . . . Can Gigabit ethernet go directly into mac (something for mac maybe)?

Accompanying Software?

Bayer Filter or no?

Dynamic Range?

Overcrank/Faster Frame rates?

Expected date ready for shipping?

If this is the camera we're waiting for, I'm seriously interested (Making a semi-budget feature soon)

Details to actionvideo@charter.net or laurencemaher@hotmail.com please

Thanks for your hard work!

[Steve Nordhauser]

Laurence:

Okay, so you're saying the altezens chip cameras are being put together as we speak? And with all the bells and whistles, 4:4:4, global shutter, 24p +, 1920 X 1080, 12 bit, 64 Mhz, 75-100Mbps? Yes?

Some bells and one or two whistles.
The Altasens is a rolling shutter camera, not global shutter. At 24/30fps, you can skip every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifact.
12 bit raw data streaming from the camera.
Up to 150Mpix/sec (think system design with this number)
Up to 60fps, full res (programmable clock)

Lens mount? 2/3" format c mount

Camera interface? . . . Can Gigabit ethernet go directly into mac (something for mac maybe)?

No Mac support. PC for capture.
Accompanying Software?

Interface dependent. Nothing right now that is designed for the DV community. Recording SW is an issue right now. We are working on initial support for Epix and Coreco FGs and gigabit. Epix provides some recording, Norpix is compatible, Obin is coming along.....Still not plug in and start recording the way you need it......

Bayer Filter or no? Mono or Bayer color

Dynamic Range? Yes. Testing now. "Very good" Long discussion that I will address separately. The chip can do 10+ stops at ISO 400, depending on where you set middle grey.

Overcrank/Faster Frame rates? If the system can handle it, 60fps @1080, over 120fps @ 720

Expected date ready for shipping?
Next week.

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Laurence:

The Altasens is a rolling shutter camera, not global shutter. At 24/30fps, you can skip every other frame to minimize the rolling shutter artifact.
-->>>

OK I notice you keep on saying this, but isn't the rolling shutter on the Altsens around 400FPS (becaus of extremly fast read out). This is far above the 60fps, drop every second frame, people have advocated on other cameras to solve the rolling shutter problem. Is there some restriction that stops this fast rolling shutter feature on your camera?


Laurence, thanks for the advice, what I would have hoped for.


Tech news, The 2Ghz+ version of the VIA chip might be delayed 6 months, so I expect we might see slower versions on the original release date. No news on the dual core. The Ibis 3 chip Sumix camera might not be a reality for quiet a while, they will be coming with the other one first.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Laurence, I couldn't have said it any better :)

[Steve Nordhauser]

Wayne:

From the Altasens 3560 data sheet:

Pixel rate Nominal 150 MHz or 74.25 MHz (SMPTE 274M)

Image Capture Electronic Focal Plane Rolling Shutter

Main clock 74.25 MHz nominal, two pixel values per clock edge

Max. frame rate 60 Hz progressive or 60 Hz interlaced at full resolution with line-mixing


To get data off the chip at 400fps (2.1Mpix x 12 bits) is about a 10Gbps rate. There is no internal storage in the chip and none external. Somewhere, something would have to accept the data at that rate. The internal shift registers, the A/D converters and storage would all have to run at that rate.

[Wayne Morellini]

Rob S, where are you?

How's the capture software going?

Wayne.

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne:

From the Altasens 3560 data sheet:

Pixel rate Nominal 150 MHz or 74.25 MHz (SMPTE 274M)

Image Capture Electronic Focal Plane Rolling Shutter

Main clock 74.25 MHz nominal, two pixel values per clock edge

Max. frame rate 60 Hz progressive or 60 Hz interlaced at full resolution with line-mixing


To get data off the chip at 400fps (2.1Mpix x 12 bits) is about a 10Gbps rate. There is no internal storage in the chip and none external. Somewhere, something would have to accept the data at that rate. The internal shift registers, the A/D converters and storage would all have to run at that rate. -->>>

Get my head around that latter, but I don't mean off chip frame rate but the actual special high speed shuttering feature independent of the off chip frame rate. I have to see a freind off on the plane early this morning, so I will have to look it up again latter.

[Wayne Morellini]

I see, the JVC box camera must have used a memory buffer to eliminate the image skew, I thought the pixels had a buffer memory cell attached to each pixel to do it. That must be one of the biggest bummers since finding out the Ibis was pathetic. I thought I read somewhere of some other mechanism to eliminate rolling shutter. So you can't just snap shot the thing (blocking integration after a shutter period, and read the thing out slowly, at the frame rate (24fps).

Your PDF data sheet says:

Rolling Shutter... The crispness or detail of the line is determined by the shutter speed (integration time). The extreme high-speed readout of the MegaCameraHD any such motion artifacts are minimized. The benefit of rolling shutter mode, is that exposure and readout are overlapping, enabling full frame exposures without reducing frame rate.

It seems to be promising that the camera will reduce rolling shutter lag through high speed read out. Has there been a design change?

[Steve Nordhauser]

The quote from the data sheet just says what we have been doing all along. If you want to run at a frame rate of 24fps, you can readout at up to 60fps with a longer blanking time and get less rolling shutter artifacts. You can also shorten the integration time (like a shutter speed) to minimize motion blur. You will still get the top line one frame readout time ahead of the last but they will all have a shorter exposure.

What you are asking for is a global shutter - expose the sensor - every line - at one time and then stop exposing it. Or you can use a mechanical shutter.

Maybe you are confusing that 500fps Micron sensor?