Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion

Wayne Morellini · December 20th, 2004, 06:07 PM

That is what the people are claiming, but at the same time, I see how they could be mistaken. Just because seperate datapaths goes from Black chip A (?) to compressor and component, doesn't mean the two aren't linked. I assume they know to examine if the datapath is one way data. If the datapath is bi-directional, then the data canbe sent to the compressor, sent back again then to the component (and the rest is probably a bit of hype). You get my meaning, as I don't have an FX1 (and probably won't at the local price, even if it is uncomrpessed) I can't trest myself. The blackchip might be a hub, all data flows into, and out of, a central organising chip, so is passed back and foward toi get to individual chips. Probably the best test is to throw a computer generated random niose picture into the camera that should completely stuff the comrpessor circuit, and then compare the output to the original digitally (still a bit tricky to setup right).

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini · December 20th, 2004, 08:43 PM

I just read a Tomshardware news artical that claims that sub $500 notebooks are now common on compusa (I think that was the site) and listed a Linux Laptop for less than $500 but only !GHZ at the moment (they also have a second part DVexpo report). This gets me thinking, if laptops are going to be under $500 in future with fast enough processor and Gigae, that is a very viable alternative to bying an ITX MB, especially if you consider that it may coem with 720p compatable LCD. Even if you wanted to put everything in a case, all that entails is breaking down the laptop and refiting it is a more suitable style case.

Omar Saad · January 2nd, 2005, 04:35 PM

Hi Guys, I just wanted to say first off that I am new to this site but have been reading for the past week or so on what you are doing with the "home made hd cameras" and i am completely facsinated. I have been reading as much as i can as there is a tone of posts to catch up on so i'm not sure if you have addressed this particular camera/sensor....but how viable would it be to use this Dalsa Pantera SA 2M30? It says that it outputs 1080p @ up to 30fps. I can't however find anything about the price. Does anyone know if this a good option for the sensor/camera protion and have an idea what it costs?

http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/2m30.asp

keep up the good work,

Omar

Rob Lohman · January 3rd, 2005, 04:59 AM

Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Omar!

I don't know the price either, but if it isn't listed it usually is in a
pricerange that "normal" people cannot afford....

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · January 3rd, 2005, 10:12 PM

Last time I got a quotation from Dalsa for a 2K model it was around 6,000 bucks or the like....
Not so bad for a good quality CCD.

Omar Saad · January 3rd, 2005, 10:38 PM

Thanks Rob, I glad to finally contribute a post!

Juan thanks for the info....that's a bit pricey, but based on the info on their site and what little I know about CCD's it seems like it would output one hell of a nice image. I wonder if it is similar to the CCD they use in their digital cinema camera?

Wayne Morellini · January 4th, 2005, 06:30 AM

I have tried to contact them about pricing, and got some ... locally distributor that wants to know the information allready included in the email he is replying to (why me). I have noted that their 6MP model should get close to 24fps in a panavision style window of interest. But if they are going to be much more than the 2MP model, it is a bit piontless.

I have been thinking, if we wanted a large performance camera (for documentary or cheap cinema production) then we could use 3 chip pixel shifted SD progressive camera head. With the larger cell size we should have tremendouse latitude, SN, and maxinum satuation values. But I have no idea who the leaders in performance, or value, are in the SD market, let alone the cmos sensor side of it.

Does anybody know of any cheap 3 chip prisms, or how to put a chip prism together cheap.

Wayne.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · January 4th, 2005, 02:09 PM

Well, what you say is right .The problem of all this is the word "cheap".
There is no "cheap" way to do what you are asking, because you need expensive machinery, trained professionals and a special facility to be able to play with chips and prisms.
And in the end that three chips with prism will be far more expensive than a single sensor of higher resolution.

Wayne Morellini · January 4th, 2005, 02:21 PM

But allways humbly, much better. OK if there is none, there is none. I would have thought they would have been pretty standardised and fitable like normal prisms, not having to be custom made for each sensor.

Thanks.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · January 4th, 2005, 05:28 PM

You misunderstood what I said.
The prisms are stanadard.The difficult part is mounting the chips on them with enough precision and a really clean environment.
Then you have the added cost of three times the electronics required for a single sensor.....
So at the end all this together gets higher cost than just a bigger resolution chip.
I hope it is clearer now.

Wayne Morellini · January 5th, 2005, 04:44 AM

OK, I understand now, that canbe arranged (though the mounting method would have to be thoroughly researched). Now show me a 9 mpixel or 18 mpixel chip that can do 24fps at such latitude and sensitivty, at even four times the price. Now do you understand. Please stop it, I don't need such conviently negative answers everytime I say something "slightly" challenging.

Wayne Morellini · January 10th, 2005, 11:00 PM

I got around to posting a adaptor screen technology (face plates), and image down scaling technology for direct sensor chip connection (tapers). Good stuff, hi res, high transmission options. The post is here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...489#post261489

Laurence Maher · January 25th, 2005, 04:17 AM

Anyone heard anything from SI or SUMMIX? Seem to be out of touch on the boards anyway.

Steve Nordhauser · January 25th, 2005, 09:16 AM

I'm still around. Things are happening. Things will be announced. Instead of "out of touch" think "low profile".

Wayne Morellini · January 25th, 2005, 09:52 AM

Whatever happened to the camera, I thought it was go for Jan the 9th?

December 20th, 2004, 08:43 PM	#272
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sub $500 laptop, thinking. I just read a Tomshardware news artical that claims that sub $500 notebooks are now common on compusa (I think that was the site) and listed a Linux Laptop for less than $500 but only !GHZ at the moment (they also have a second part DVexpo report). This gets me thinking, if laptops are going to be under $500 in future with fast enough processor and Gigae, that is a very viable alternative to bying an ITX MB, especially if you consider that it may coem with 720p compatable LCD. Even if you wanted to put everything in a case, all that entails is breaking down the laptop and refiting it is a more suitable style case.

January 3rd, 2005, 04:59 AM	#274
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Welcome aboard DVInfo.net Omar! I don't know the price either, but if it isn't listed it usually is in a pricerange that "normal" people cannot afford.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 25th, 2005, 09:16 AM	#284
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	I'm still around. Things are happening. Things will be announced. Instead of "out of touch" think "low profile". __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

December 20th, 2004, 06:07 PM	#271
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	That is what the people are claiming, but at the same time, I see how they could be mistaken. Just because seperate datapaths goes from Black chip A (?) to compressor and component, doesn't mean the two aren't linked. I assume they know to examine if the datapath is one way data. If the datapath is bi-directional, then the data canbe sent to the compressor, sent back again then to the component (and the rest is probably a bit of hype). You get my meaning, as I don't have an FX1 (and probably won't at the local price, even if it is uncomrpessed) I can't trest myself. The blackchip might be a hub, all data flows into, and out of, a central organising chip, so is passed back and foward toi get to individual chips. Probably the best test is to throw a computer generated random niose picture into the camera that should completely stuff the comrpessor circuit, and then compare the output to the original digitally (still a bit tricky to setup right). Wayne.

January 2nd, 2005, 04:35 PM	#273
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Hi Guys, I just wanted to say first off that I am new to this site but have been reading for the past week or so on what you are doing with the "home made hd cameras" and i am completely facsinated. I have been reading as much as i can as there is a tone of posts to catch up on so i'm not sure if you have addressed this particular camera/sensor....but how viable would it be to use this Dalsa Pantera SA 2M30? It says that it outputs 1080p @ up to 30fps. I can't however find anything about the price. Does anyone know if this a good option for the sensor/camera protion and have an idea what it costs? http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/2m30.asp keep up the good work, Omar

January 3rd, 2005, 10:12 PM	#275
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Last time I got a quotation from Dalsa for a 2K model it was around 6,000 bucks or the like.... Not so bad for a good quality CCD.

January 3rd, 2005, 10:38 PM	#276
Omar Saad Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA Posts: 38	Thanks Rob, I glad to finally contribute a post! Juan thanks for the info....that's a bit pricey, but based on the info on their site and what little I know about CCD's it seems like it would output one hell of a nice image. I wonder if it is similar to the CCD they use in their digital cinema camera?

January 4th, 2005, 06:30 AM	#277
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I have tried to contact them about pricing, and got some ... locally distributor that wants to know the information allready included in the email he is replying to (why me). I have noted that their 6MP model should get close to 24fps in a panavision style window of interest. But if they are going to be much more than the 2MP model, it is a bit piontless. I have been thinking, if we wanted a large performance camera (for documentary or cheap cinema production) then we could use 3 chip pixel shifted SD progressive camera head. With the larger cell size we should have tremendouse latitude, SN, and maxinum satuation values. But I have no idea who the leaders in performance, or value, are in the SD market, let alone the cmos sensor side of it. Does anybody know of any cheap 3 chip prisms, or how to put a chip prism together cheap. Wayne.

January 4th, 2005, 02:09 PM	#278
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Well, what you say is right .The problem of all this is the word "cheap". There is no "cheap" way to do what you are asking, because you need expensive machinery, trained professionals and a special facility to be able to play with chips and prisms. And in the end that three chips with prism will be far more expensive than a single sensor of higher resolution.

January 4th, 2005, 02:21 PM	#279
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	But allways humbly, much better. OK if there is none, there is none. I would have thought they would have been pretty standardised and fitable like normal prisms, not having to be custom made for each sensor. Thanks.

January 4th, 2005, 05:28 PM	#280
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	You misunderstood what I said. The prisms are stanadard.The difficult part is mounting the chips on them with enough precision and a really clean environment. Then you have the added cost of three times the electronics required for a single sensor..... So at the end all this together gets higher cost than just a bigger resolution chip. I hope it is clearer now.

January 5th, 2005, 04:44 AM	#281
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	OK, I understand now, that canbe arranged (though the mounting method would have to be thoroughly researched). Now show me a 9 mpixel or 18 mpixel chip that can do 24fps at such latitude and sensitivty, at even four times the price. Now do you understand. Please stop it, I don't need such conviently negative answers everytime I say something "slightly" challenging.

January 10th, 2005, 11:00 PM	#282
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I got around to posting a adaptor screen technology (face plates), and image down scaling technology for direct sensor chip connection (tapers). Good stuff, hi res, high transmission options. The post is here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...489#post261489

January 25th, 2005, 04:17 AM	#283
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Anyone heard anything from SI or SUMMIX? Seem to be out of touch on the boards anyway.

January 25th, 2005, 09:52 AM	#285
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Whatever happened to the camera, I thought it was go for Jan the 9th?