Microcrystalline Wax

Martin Lindstedt · July 25th, 2004, 04:45 AM

haha! .. vacuum cleaner! :)

I actually had this idea a while ago .. sucking up the wax .. but the problem would be to keep the wax inside when you remove it from the pot .. hmm .. but it's worth a shot, though !

Bob, are you saying that wax isn't good enough to be used as a GG? Have you tried microwax after your paraffin and beeswax mix?

Another technique is to make a frame of aluminium foil on a glass, the pour hot wax in the middle, and then smash another glass on top of it, forcing any bubbles out. But I guess the wax is too .. "waterish" to make this work.

Anyone knows what technique they use to make those Bosscreens?

Bob Hart · July 25th, 2004, 05:32 AM

Using a vacuum is legitimate provided you preheat your glass to keep the wax liquified. Maintain the vacuum and wax supply whilst you cool the glass. Any entrained air in the wax will expand furthur under a vacuum. (There may be a problem with light fractions vaporising in vacuum conditions and making furthur bubbles or density inconsistencies in the mix but this one is theoretical).

I have only used the 10% beeswax blend. The waxdisk.jpg files on www.dvinfo.net/media/hart were doens with this brew.

I have not yet found a handy source of micro-crystalline wax in W.A.. We do have a petrol refinery nearby so it might turn up there.

The aluminium foil idea is a dead-end or at least in the method I used. It is too hard to immobilise unless you fold tags over to glue it on back of the glass. It tends to expand, float and crinkle which spoils the precision between the glass panels.

I tried centrifugal force by spinning the disks and the CD-R spindle under the wax to make the bubbles migrate to the center however sooner or later you have to stop in order to haul the composite disk out and any bubbles go back to the widest points between the two surfaces.

I think the best method will be to bring the two glasses together under the surface whilst holding them in a vertical position, then slowly laying them over, cooling the mix until at butter consistency then hauling the composite out to set hard. This requires more wax than I have on hand at the moment and a taller hotpot than I possess right now.

Frank Ladner · July 25th, 2004, 04:36 PM

I found out the hard way that even a fingerprint on the inside of the glass will trap tiny air bubbles inside. The inside layers have to be super clean.

Also, instead of heating a bunch of wax in a pot to get a enough for me to submerge the glass in, I just formed an aluminum cup (make sure to double layer it, though, depending on the foil's strength) and poured the hot wax in there. Then I submerged the glass sandwich (which consisted of two .99 cent picture frames, about 50mm in diameter, with a couple of folded bits of aluminum foil in between them and JB Weld around the sides, except for a notch at the top.) This would fill with wax and the air bubbles would rise to the top and out the opening. It needs to sit for a while, because those air bubbles are slow moving. I have found that it helps to take a pair of tongs and squeeze the glass a little, forcing the bubbles to work their way up more quickly.

For cleaning the outside of the glass after the wax had cooled, I would use a hair dryer - and just enough to heat the outside wax. Then I'd just clean it off with a rag.

Hope this helps!

,Frank

Bob Hart · July 25th, 2004, 10:16 PM

Hair dryer - now I wish I had thought of that.

Frank Ladner · July 26th, 2004, 01:14 PM

:-)

But you have to be careful and use the hairdryer on a low power, otherwise you might make a mess.

Or you can apply some paper directly over the wax and heat that. Most of the melted wax will soak into the paper. The rest you can just clean with a rag.

Filip Kovcin · July 27th, 2004, 05:01 PM

did anyone of you tryed to make proper GG with silicone glue? (not colored, but semi transparent one)
i mean to put super thin layer on glass - and when silicone is dry it's almost proper transparency for GG - or not?

what do you think?

filip

Frank Ladner · July 27th, 2004, 08:03 PM

Les Dit · July 27th, 2004, 08:23 PM

Looks pretty good Frank. I only see a tiny amout of fixed pattern grain.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Here's a 10 frame JPG sequence for you guys to check out.

It is slightly out of focus, which is one of the best ways to get grain to show up.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thank you! -->>>

Frank Ladner · July 28th, 2004, 09:31 AM

Les: Thanks for checking them out!

I've noticed that I don't have as bad of a hotspot with wax as opposed to ground glass. I believe this is due to the thickness of the wax layer, so if you had a thinner layer, you'd get a brighter image w/ hotspot similar to glass.

With a rotating device, however, I feel that it would be better/safer to use regular ground glass (in conjunction with condensers to remove hotspot) so that you wouldn't have to worry about the wax eventually melting or changing color.

Justin Burris · July 28th, 2004, 12:14 PM

Frank,

Image sequence looks great.

How thick is the wax?

Frank Ladner · July 28th, 2004, 12:40 PM

Justin: Thanks!

Well...I can't say an exact measurement of the wax thickness but this should give you an idea: I took a couple of thin strips of aluminum foil (regular stuff - not heavy duty) and folded them a couple of times to make the spacers between the two pieces of glass.

I'd say the thickness is a bit less than that of your fingernail.

Justin Burris · July 28th, 2004, 03:27 PM

Frank,

Would it be asking too much for another slow-pan image sequence, this one being a little longer (20?), and having something - that tree would work fine - in focus?

I only ask because this method that you are developing appears, at this point, to be our best bet for a static adaptor.

Thanks.

Frank Ladner · July 28th, 2004, 07:50 PM

Justin: Sure! I just sortof ran outside and grabbed that blurry tree footage just for the pan test. I'll get some in-focus shots tomorrow (It's dark right now.) and hopefully have a longer sequence uploaded.

Frank Ladner · July 29th, 2004, 04:25 PM

I uploaded 30 jpg frames from a sequence captured today.

Sorry these aren't zipped. (Don't have a zip program at the moment.)

http://www.frankladner.com/images/micro_00000.jpg

through

http://www.frankladner.com/images/micro_00029.jpg

Just copy/paste and change the number. Again, sorry about these not being zipped!

Thanks!

Filip Kovcin · July 29th, 2004, 04:37 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : I uploaded 30 jpg frames from a sequence captured today.... -->>>

frank, the last jpg i downloaded was with nr 18, after that - i just see info - 'page not found'. i beleive that something is wrong with your page(s).

please - recheck your site. thank you.

filip

July 27th, 2004, 05:01 PM	#66
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	is this weird? did anyone of you tryed to make proper GG with silicone glue? (not colored, but semi transparent one) i mean to put super thin layer on glass - and when silicone is dry it's almost proper transparency for GG - or not? what do you think? filip

July 29th, 2004, 04:25 PM	#74
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	New Sequence I uploaded 30 jpg frames from a sequence captured today. Sorry these aren't zipped. (Don't have a zip program at the moment.) http://www.frankladner.com/images/micro_00000.jpg through http://www.frankladner.com/images/micro_00029.jpg Just copy/paste and change the number. Again, sorry about these not being zipped! Thanks!

July 29th, 2004, 04:37 PM	#75
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	Re: New Sequence <<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : I uploaded 30 jpg frames from a sequence captured today.... -->>> frank, the last jpg i downloaded was with nr 18, after that - i just see info - 'page not found'. i beleive that something is wrong with your page(s). please - recheck your site. thank you. filip

July 25th, 2004, 04:45 AM	#61
Martin Lindstedt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 25	haha! .. vacuum cleaner! :) I actually had this idea a while ago .. sucking up the wax .. but the problem would be to keep the wax inside when you remove it from the pot .. hmm .. but it's worth a shot, though ! Bob, are you saying that wax isn't good enough to be used as a GG? Have you tried microwax after your paraffin and beeswax mix? Another technique is to make a frame of aluminium foil on a glass, the pour hot wax in the middle, and then smash another glass on top of it, forcing any bubbles out. But I guess the wax is too .. "waterish" to make this work. Anyone knows what technique they use to make those Bosscreens?

July 25th, 2004, 05:32 AM	#62
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Using a vacuum is legitimate provided you preheat your glass to keep the wax liquified. Maintain the vacuum and wax supply whilst you cool the glass. Any entrained air in the wax will expand furthur under a vacuum. (There may be a problem with light fractions vaporising in vacuum conditions and making furthur bubbles or density inconsistencies in the mix but this one is theoretical). I have only used the 10% beeswax blend. The waxdisk.jpg files on www.dvinfo.net/media/hart were doens with this brew. I have not yet found a handy source of micro-crystalline wax in W.A.. We do have a petrol refinery nearby so it might turn up there. The aluminium foil idea is a dead-end or at least in the method I used. It is too hard to immobilise unless you fold tags over to glue it on back of the glass. It tends to expand, float and crinkle which spoils the precision between the glass panels. I tried centrifugal force by spinning the disks and the CD-R spindle under the wax to make the bubbles migrate to the center however sooner or later you have to stop in order to haul the composite disk out and any bubbles go back to the widest points between the two surfaces. I think the best method will be to bring the two glasses together under the surface whilst holding them in a vertical position, then slowly laying them over, cooling the mix until at butter consistency then hauling the composite out to set hard. This requires more wax than I have on hand at the moment and a taller hotpot than I possess right now.

July 25th, 2004, 04:36 PM	#63
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	I found out the hard way that even a fingerprint on the inside of the glass will trap tiny air bubbles inside. The inside layers have to be super clean. Also, instead of heating a bunch of wax in a pot to get a enough for me to submerge the glass in, I just formed an aluminum cup (make sure to double layer it, though, depending on the foil's strength) and poured the hot wax in there. Then I submerged the glass sandwich (which consisted of two .99 cent picture frames, about 50mm in diameter, with a couple of folded bits of aluminum foil in between them and JB Weld around the sides, except for a notch at the top.) This would fill with wax and the air bubbles would rise to the top and out the opening. It needs to sit for a while, because those air bubbles are slow moving. I have found that it helps to take a pair of tongs and squeeze the glass a little, forcing the bubbles to work their way up more quickly. For cleaning the outside of the glass after the wax had cooled, I would use a hair dryer - and just enough to heat the outside wax. Then I'd just clean it off with a rag. Hope this helps! ,Frank

July 25th, 2004, 10:16 PM	#64
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Hair dryer - now I wish I had thought of that.

July 26th, 2004, 01:14 PM	#65
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	:-) But you have to be careful and use the hairdryer on a low power, otherwise you might make a mess. Or you can apply some paper directly over the wax and heat that. Most of the melted wax will soak into the paper. The rest you can just clean with a rag.

July 27th, 2004, 08:03 PM	#67
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Here's a 10 frame JPG sequence for you guys to check out. It is slightly out of focus, which is one of the best ways to get grain to show up. No post has been done except for the letterboxing. http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00000.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00001.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00002.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00003.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00004.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00005.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00006.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00007.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00008.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/images/tree_pan_00009.jpg Let me know what you guys think. Thank you!

July 27th, 2004, 08:23 PM	#68
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Looks pretty good Frank. I only see a tiny amout of fixed pattern grain. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Here's a 10 frame JPG sequence for you guys to check out. It is slightly out of focus, which is one of the best ways to get grain to show up. Let me know what you guys think. Thank you! -->>>

July 28th, 2004, 09:31 AM	#69
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Les: Thanks for checking them out! I've noticed that I don't have as bad of a hotspot with wax as opposed to ground glass. I believe this is due to the thickness of the wax layer, so if you had a thinner layer, you'd get a brighter image w/ hotspot similar to glass. With a rotating device, however, I feel that it would be better/safer to use regular ground glass (in conjunction with condensers to remove hotspot) so that you wouldn't have to worry about the wax eventually melting or changing color.

July 28th, 2004, 12:14 PM	#70
Justin Burris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 54	Frank, Image sequence looks great. How thick is the wax?

July 28th, 2004, 12:40 PM	#71
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Justin: Thanks! Well...I can't say an exact measurement of the wax thickness but this should give you an idea: I took a couple of thin strips of aluminum foil (regular stuff - not heavy duty) and folded them a couple of times to make the spacers between the two pieces of glass. I'd say the thickness is a bit less than that of your fingernail.

July 28th, 2004, 03:27 PM	#72
Justin Burris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 54	Frank, Would it be asking too much for another slow-pan image sequence, this one being a little longer (20?), and having something - that tree would work fine - in focus? I only ask because this method that you are developing appears, at this point, to be our best bet for a static adaptor. Thanks.

July 28th, 2004, 07:50 PM	#73
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Justin: Sure! I just sortof ran outside and grabbed that blurry tree footage just for the pan test. I'll get some in-focus shots tomorrow (It's dark right now.) and hopefully have a longer sequence uploaded.