Microcrystalline Wax

Obin Olson · June 22nd, 2004, 11:57 AM

when can I get it? and will it work for HD?

Les Dit · June 22nd, 2004, 12:21 PM

I'm finishing the first one now, I should have something in about a week.
With the detail of HD I think it's the only way.
-Les
<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : when can I get it? and will it work for HD? -->>>

Frank Ladner · June 22nd, 2004, 01:14 PM

Les: I am also interested in this. Please keep us posted. Also, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the end user provides the intermediate image surface (ground glass). What types (shapes, thickness, weight, etc.) of surfaces will it accept?

Obin: As described, my procedure for making a wax glass is very low-tech. Given the quality of HD, I don't think I could make a satisfactory wax glass for you.

Les Dit · June 22nd, 2004, 01:25 PM

Frank,
It will accept any flat piece, with a thickness up to 3/16 inch.
I'll get the exact max opening size soon.
I want it to fit into a black PVC pipe coupler, something nice and standard that anyone can get.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Les: I am also interested in this. Please keep us posted. Also, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the end user provides the intermediate image surface (ground glass). What types (shapes, thickness, weight, etc.) of surfaces will it accept?

Obin: As described, my procedure for making a wax glass is very low-tech. Given the quality of HD, I don't think I could make a satisfactory wax glass for you. -->>>

Obin Olson · June 22nd, 2004, 02:00 PM

Les maybe you could email me at:

oolsen1@ec.rr.com

thanks

Rob LaPoint · June 22nd, 2004, 02:22 PM

Another option that I have considered but havent tried to to mount a fresnel lense between the camera and the GG. That is the way they maximize light in projection tvs, it kills the viewing angle becuase it takes all the light and directs it straight out. That is why the viewing angle on projection tvs sucks, but in this case you dont need a good viewing angle. It could proably save you a an F-stop, but the ridges in the fresnel might be visible ( i dont know because I never tried it)

Frank Ladner · June 28th, 2004, 10:43 AM

I am still experimenting with the microcrystalline and wanted to update everyone.

The last glass-wax solution I made was the best so far. I formed a long cup type shape out of thick aluminum foil. I filled the cup with melted wax from the pot and then set the cup w/ wax in the pot of wax. Next I dropped my glass in. This was two pieces of glass from .84 cent picture frames purchased at Wal-Mart. The glass had two thin strips of aluminum foil, folded in half, inbetween the long edges of the glass. The glass was taped at the top and bottom to keep the sandwich together.

This was set down in the cup of melted wax, longways. I made sure the cup was quite taller than the glass, so that it would cover the glass and the pressure would be enough to force any air bubbles out from between the glass sandwich.

I turned the heat off and allowed the whole thing to cool. After it cooled (I didn't wait till it was completely hard - just thick.), I peeled the aluminum from around the wax, scraped the wax off the outside of the glass, and then allowed the glass w/ wax inside to cool further by itself.

I am happy with the thickness of the wax layer inbetween the glass, as the hotspot is eliminated, and there is absolutely no grain that I can see.

After I cleaned the glass completely on the outside, I sanded the edges and applied JB Weld around it to seal the wax inside.

This is the best solution that I have managed to get, and I don't think that a moving ground glass would be any better.

Justin Burris · June 28th, 2004, 12:43 PM

Frank,

Can we see a shot using your new focus screen?

Frank Ladner · June 28th, 2004, 01:58 PM

Justin: Definately! When I get home from work I hope to complile some shots and upload actual motion footage this time, along with some more full-size frame grabs.

Frank Ladner · June 29th, 2004, 07:06 AM

Sorry I haven't posted anything yet. The latest footage I have shot is all indoor stuff. We have had a lot of rainy weather down here, so I am waiting for a nice day to get some outside stuff before I put some footage together.

Obin Olson · June 29th, 2004, 07:34 PM

man Frank I don't care about what you shot I WANT TO SEE IT NOW!!!! LOL please? I really want to try this with our HD camera! do you think it's grainless enough for HD?

No, really can you tell me what type of wax you used I want to try it

Frank Ladner · June 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM

Obin: LOL! Ok, ok!

I uploaded three full size frames and one 352x240 video (DivX compressed AVI, about 1.12 MB).

The movie was shot handheld. I'm waving the camera around while holding the glass and lens to the front of the camera. So you may see some flare in there where I allowed light to come in.

The reason I chose this shot to show you guys was because I stopped down the 35mm lens and got no grain. It's harder to tell from the small resolution movie, so check out some of the framegrabs.

http://www.frankladner.com/m_001.jpg
http://www.frankladner.com/m_002.jpg
http://www.frankladner.com/m_003.jpg

http://www.frankladner.com/micro_test_01.avi

(Note: m_002.jpg is motion blurred a bit, not diffused/softened by the glass.)

Again, this is using a layer of microcrystalline wax between two pieces of glass (small, cheap picture frames). I stick two aluminum foil strips (folded a couple of times) inbetween the glass on the sides. I then tape the sandwich around the top and bottom and set it vertically in the melted wax. (Read previous posts for more details.)

To you guys that may try this, it's pretty simple to do, but the biggest problem is getting all those little air bubbles out, even when the glass sandwich is vertical.

I had good results with taping the sides and bottom, so that no wax could leak out, and spooning melted wax over the top, filling the glass up. Then I'd let it sit for a while so most of the air bubbles would get out. This gave me one usable side of the glass.
(btw, the picture frames are rectangular. I'm looking for some small, cheap square ones. Maybe I'd have less trouble w/ air bubbles if I was using smaller pieces of glass.)

I am still trying for the (almost) perfect glass. Once I get that, I'll build some sort of housing and try to make it look good (and more importantly, keep the light out).

Any more suggestions would be really appreciated.

,Frank

Obin Olson · June 29th, 2004, 10:06 PM

wow lookin good!! can you please upload some stills that are Not stopped down so i can see some details? give me a still from the first sec of the video that is wide open..what camera are you using?

Frank can you make me one for testing with my HD camera and see if i can see grain with HD?

Rai Orz · June 30th, 2004, 05:18 AM

Frank, it makes me happy to see the good results in so short time. As i said before, we worked since years with 35mm solutions and the wax way is still the best. Our GG was developed together with a manufacturer for fine optical parts. We tested hundreds ways with hundreds different mixtures. The way i told before in this thread (its nearly the way you make it) brings the best. But it is not grainless. The grain is surely very smal, but a HD Cam with more than 720 vertical lines (and exact focos!!!) can see it. That is the reason why we bring the GG also in very smal and loudless, circle vibrations. This requires a very exactly fine-mechanical work. We found pvc was not well enoug, so our System is make in aluminum. Also we tested everyone on a optical bank. This time we work on a little different way for a cinema solution with a HD Cam with more than 2000 vertical lines. Because The patent examinations is going on, i can not yet say more details. Please wait another few days.

Obin Olson · June 30th, 2004, 06:58 AM

Rai, will 1280x720 see the grain?

June 22nd, 2004, 02:22 PM	#36
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Another option that I have considered but havent tried to to mount a fresnel lense between the camera and the GG. That is the way they maximize light in projection tvs, it kills the viewing angle becuase it takes all the light and directs it straight out. That is why the viewing angle on projection tvs sucks, but in this case you dont need a good viewing angle. It could proably save you a an F-stop, but the ridges in the fresnel might be visible ( i dont know because I never tried it) __________________ Whatever works

June 29th, 2004, 07:06 AM	#40
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	updates Sorry I haven't posted anything yet. The latest footage I have shot is all indoor stuff. We have had a lot of rainy weather down here, so I am waiting for a nice day to get some outside stuff before I put some footage together.

June 22nd, 2004, 11:57 AM	#31
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	when can I get it? and will it work for HD?

June 22nd, 2004, 12:21 PM	#32
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	I'm finishing the first one now, I should have something in about a week. With the detail of HD I think it's the only way. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : when can I get it? and will it work for HD? -->>>

June 22nd, 2004, 01:14 PM	#33
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Les: I am also interested in this. Please keep us posted. Also, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the end user provides the intermediate image surface (ground glass). What types (shapes, thickness, weight, etc.) of surfaces will it accept? Obin: As described, my procedure for making a wax glass is very low-tech. Given the quality of HD, I don't think I could make a satisfactory wax glass for you.

June 22nd, 2004, 01:25 PM	#34
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Frank, It will accept any flat piece, with a thickness up to 3/16 inch. I'll get the exact max opening size soon. I want it to fit into a black PVC pipe coupler, something nice and standard that anyone can get. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Frank Ladner : Les: I am also interested in this. Please keep us posted. Also, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the end user provides the intermediate image surface (ground glass). What types (shapes, thickness, weight, etc.) of surfaces will it accept? Obin: As described, my procedure for making a wax glass is very low-tech. Given the quality of HD, I don't think I could make a satisfactory wax glass for you. -->>>

June 22nd, 2004, 02:00 PM	#35
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Les maybe you could email me at: oolsen1@ec.rr.com thanks

June 28th, 2004, 10:43 AM	#37
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	I am still experimenting with the microcrystalline and wanted to update everyone. The last glass-wax solution I made was the best so far. I formed a long cup type shape out of thick aluminum foil. I filled the cup with melted wax from the pot and then set the cup w/ wax in the pot of wax. Next I dropped my glass in. This was two pieces of glass from .84 cent picture frames purchased at Wal-Mart. The glass had two thin strips of aluminum foil, folded in half, inbetween the long edges of the glass. The glass was taped at the top and bottom to keep the sandwich together. This was set down in the cup of melted wax, longways. I made sure the cup was quite taller than the glass, so that it would cover the glass and the pressure would be enough to force any air bubbles out from between the glass sandwich. I turned the heat off and allowed the whole thing to cool. After it cooled (I didn't wait till it was completely hard - just thick.), I peeled the aluminum from around the wax, scraped the wax off the outside of the glass, and then allowed the glass w/ wax inside to cool further by itself. I am happy with the thickness of the wax layer inbetween the glass, as the hotspot is eliminated, and there is absolutely no grain that I can see. After I cleaned the glass completely on the outside, I sanded the edges and applied JB Weld around it to seal the wax inside. This is the best solution that I have managed to get, and I don't think that a moving ground glass would be any better.

June 28th, 2004, 12:43 PM	#38
Justin Burris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 54	Frank, Can we see a shot using your new focus screen?

June 28th, 2004, 01:58 PM	#39
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Justin: Definately! When I get home from work I hope to complile some shots and upload actual motion footage this time, along with some more full-size frame grabs.

June 29th, 2004, 07:34 PM	#41
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	man Frank I don't care about what you shot I WANT TO SEE IT NOW!!!! LOL please? I really want to try this with our HD camera! do you think it's grainless enough for HD? No, really can you tell me what type of wax you used I want to try it

June 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM	#42
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Obin: LOL! Ok, ok! I uploaded three full size frames and one 352x240 video (DivX compressed AVI, about 1.12 MB). The movie was shot handheld. I'm waving the camera around while holding the glass and lens to the front of the camera. So you may see some flare in there where I allowed light to come in. The reason I chose this shot to show you guys was because I stopped down the 35mm lens and got no grain. It's harder to tell from the small resolution movie, so check out some of the framegrabs. http://www.frankladner.com/m_001.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/m_002.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/m_003.jpg http://www.frankladner.com/micro_test_01.avi (Note: m_002.jpg is motion blurred a bit, not diffused/softened by the glass.) Again, this is using a layer of microcrystalline wax between two pieces of glass (small, cheap picture frames). I stick two aluminum foil strips (folded a couple of times) inbetween the glass on the sides. I then tape the sandwich around the top and bottom and set it vertically in the melted wax. (Read previous posts for more details.) To you guys that may try this, it's pretty simple to do, but the biggest problem is getting all those little air bubbles out, even when the glass sandwich is vertical. I had good results with taping the sides and bottom, so that no wax could leak out, and spooning melted wax over the top, filling the glass up. Then I'd let it sit for a while so most of the air bubbles would get out. This gave me one usable side of the glass. (btw, the picture frames are rectangular. I'm looking for some small, cheap square ones. Maybe I'd have less trouble w/ air bubbles if I was using smaller pieces of glass.) I am still trying for the (almost) perfect glass. Once I get that, I'll build some sort of housing and try to make it look good (and more importantly, keep the light out). Any more suggestions would be really appreciated. ,Frank

June 29th, 2004, 10:06 PM	#43
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	wow lookin good!! can you please upload some stills that are Not stopped down so i can see some details? give me a still from the first sec of the video that is wide open..what camera are you using? Frank can you make me one for testing with my HD camera and see if i can see grain with HD?

June 30th, 2004, 05:18 AM	#44
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Frank, it makes me happy to see the good results in so short time. As i said before, we worked since years with 35mm solutions and the wax way is still the best. Our GG was developed together with a manufacturer for fine optical parts. We tested hundreds ways with hundreds different mixtures. The way i told before in this thread (its nearly the way you make it) brings the best. But it is not grainless. The grain is surely very smal, but a HD Cam with more than 720 vertical lines (and exact focos!!!) can see it. That is the reason why we bring the GG also in very smal and loudless, circle vibrations. This requires a very exactly fine-mechanical work. We found pvc was not well enoug, so our System is make in aluminum. Also we tested everyone on a optical bank. This time we work on a little different way for a cinema solution with a HD Cam with more than 2000 vertical lines. Because The patent examinations is going on, i can not yet say more details. Please wait another few days.

June 30th, 2004, 06:58 AM	#45
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Rai, will 1280x720 see the grain?