Mini35 Oscillating Ground Glass Idea

Les Dit · July 13th, 2004, 07:36 PM

Giroud ,
In the USA , if you took that outside, I'll bet the police would be there soon, thinking it's a weapon of some kind !

Nice work on the AL parts, it all looks pretty clean!

-Les

John Jay · July 13th, 2004, 08:22 PM

just a thought...

has anyone tried an optical image stabiliser mechanism from say a busted camera to move the GG

by-pass the sensors and feed it a sinusoidal signal in x and y to produce the orbital motion

OIS supports a lens element so a GG would be that much lighter

also they are small, light, quiet and designed to fit in a tube

Richard Mellor · July 14th, 2004, 07:09 AM

thank you giroud for the pictures of your support system .
It looks very professional.

this will be of great help in helping all of us to make our own .
I have a 6 pound anamorphic lens I would like to use. your rack system will let me use it

this is a link to a company that sells aluminum rods I can't
vouch for this company yet but they seem to have parts we might need . http://www.smallparts.com/

Brett Erskine · July 14th, 2004, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the link. Im sure I'll be able to find some things there. I checked out their supply of aluminum stock and unfortunately they dont deal with metric sizes. I mention it because support rails and most pro accessories are based off a 15mm rod. FilmTools have them for $70, which even I think is too expensive for something so basic. They are however chome plated and you can screw in extensions.

Any more sources guys?

Also Les I never heard what you thought of the audio tape motors. I would love to hear some responses to the question I posted the other day.

Thanks everyone.

-Brett Erskine

Les Dit · July 14th, 2004, 07:04 PM

Bret,
I think I mentioned that my motor was from a tape deck, so yes, they seem to work fine. They usually have a little pulley on them as well, so you don't have to hunt for that also.

I haven't had time to finish my shaker rig in the past few days, I have another opto-electronic project that is going to eat most of my time in the next 2 months. Gotta pay the bills! I'll try to get it all mounted during this weekend.

-Les

Bob Hart · July 15th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Brett.

Would a fan motor from a computer (ball bearing type not plain bearing) be any good. They're built for continuous duty and I think some are brushless DC. Might be an oddball voltage though.

Roman Shafro · July 15th, 2004, 08:23 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Giroud Francois : ok , first pictures.
probably a good pass with a black paint spay will help to get a more professional look
All is made from very cheap aluminium profile. You just need to cut and assemble together. The full stuff cost me less than 35$.

Looks very professional to me, one of the best DIY rail systems I've seen so far. I wish I knew how to achieve this look without using a milling machine, which I do not have. I'd be most interested in how you solved the coupling between the rods and sliding support. Also, are your sliding supports height-adjustable? Great work!

Giroud Francois · July 15th, 2004, 11:06 AM

ok , first the picture...
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/c.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/d.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/e.jpg

now for the aluminium stuff, i try to find only component you can assemble with epoxy glue and some screw when needed.
Fortunately my DIY shop as all what i can dream.
i do not plan for this first shot to make anything variable.
you can just slide the stuff along the rail as it is just blocked by 4 o-ring plastics joints.
i plan to add another stuff like a handle and a shoulder support so i can use it without tripod.
The next version will be more sleek , all soldered instead screwed and probably respecting the 80mm spacing as the bars are already at the standard (15mm). as soon as i got time i will show more macro shot (probably breaking the dream but who cares...)

Frank Ladner · July 15th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Wow! Those are very impressive images. Excellent work, Giroud!

Brett Erskine · July 15th, 2004, 01:56 PM

Giroud-
I agree! Very nice! You have a static 35mm adapter which makes it even more amazing. Could you refresh us with the components you used for your set up (ie type and placement of diopter, gg, etc.)

Giroud Francois · July 15th, 2004, 04:56 PM

ok , i will post all the pictures so no long explanations are necessary.
The gg has been made with a technique a learned from several bad previous attempt.
I put my AO (it is the 1000 grit one) obtained from a guy in france who purchased tons of it for his miniDV project and start to share.
it cost me 10$ and it is the only one i got, since my previous order on the web has been never responded.
I put about 3 or 4 teespoon of it into a baby food glass pot.
added about 3 time water. shake for 10 sec, leave for 5 sec and take a small syringe and fill it. Drop a few of it on the glass plate . this ensure you only get the finest of it.
that is very liquid mix, and you can even think it is only colored water.
put the lens over and start to move slowly. no pressure required , just a lot of time (count about 30 min for the first result).
you can here the sound shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
suddenly shhhhhzrrrrrrshhhhhhhh. ooops you just got a bad sheep and probably made a nice scratch. Clean all with water (lens and glass) shake the mix and start again.
if you are lucky you got a good shot and the bad noise never come back.
While you work, the mix start to dry and the AO tends to accumulate on the border. just bring it back with the lens (passing on it) and add a bit more of the mix when it is drying.
this is were the syring is very effective.
the advantage of this is you let the AO wear and it goes probably finer as you progress.
The result is a very fine gg ,too fine indeed, so you will need to make a pass with a mix of AO a bit more consistent (more AO, less water) for few minutes and with a bit more of pressure.
This get the real final aspect (very opaque glass).
Personally this stage included the creation of fine scratch that i removed with the same technique (lot of water, few AO) described before.

Another point is that i am not using glass of a uV filter but the one from a very thin lens (you will see that in picture soon). I think the kind of glass used inluence greatly the result.

... pictures.
the alu part costing about 1$ each except the right angle tube (electrical booth of the DIY shop) that cost 6$.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu1.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu2.jpg
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu3.jpg
not shown are eloxed tube (1meter, 15mm dia) for about 5$
it is not raw alu, it is a special stuff called Duralumin that is much harder (you can not bend it, it will break like steel) and it is much lighter than alu and the mat eloxed finish is very cool.

the GG lens (the one for my 2nd proto, not yet frosted) because i still hesistate to use it if i have to vibrate, should be too big and heavy. the lense is 60mm diameter and about 4mm thick at center.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens.jpg
the achromat macro lens 52mm dia.(this one was a test for GG)
5$ at www.suplusshed.com
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens2.jpg
all these lens have pretty long focal length (around 20cm) that is why my adapter is so long. I think i could make it shorter, but the previous version that was shorter about 2 inches showed heavy vignetting that is why i build this version longer.
Finally there is another lens between the condenser and the macro that looks like a huge (55mm dia) contact lens and i think this one make all the difference and could probably let me shorten all the stuff.
the pot with the AO (since several week the water evaporate but you can still see the level it was.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/aomix.jpg

Bob Hart · July 16th, 2004, 01:03 AM

Girard.

If you use a piece of bronze with flat smooth surface, milled or turned on lathe, there is less problem with sticking-scratch.

Brett Erskine · July 16th, 2004, 02:44 AM

Giroud-
Thanks for the detailed response. One question. You say that you have another lens between the condenser and the macro lens and its shaped like a contact lens. Do you mean it has two curved surfaces - one convex and one concaved? What is the effect/purpose of this lens in your adapter?

Thanks ahead of time.

-Brett

Giroud Francois · July 16th, 2004, 05:42 AM

yes that is correct . the lens has a concave side and a convex one.
they are not the same curve, so there is a magnification effect, but not really big
the lens anyway is very thin (few milimeters at the thickest).
the picture i got without this lens (gg condenser +macro) was good but you can still see this halo (bright center/dark corner) on my 60mm diam. gg glass.
the zoom was then very touchy to place to make sure you did not get any vignetting.
Then i just give a try to this lens and wow, what a difference.
the gg glass become covered with same light on all the surface, while keeping the same field of view.
the only problem i did not see immediately it that the position of the lens is critical. too close from the gg and the straight line start to curve inside and too far they curve outside, but finally i found the correct distance and all is ok.

to Bob Hart.
Ok thank for the advice, but it seems this kind of equipment is in the "hard to find" section and my strategy for the miniDV project was "keep it simple". That is why i am still reluctant to gg vibration as it is involving very special work and parts.
I do not desesperate to be able to do it with very simply but tracks are not really clear.
Any way if you can reach the quality of my gg glass, the level of vibration required should be very small.

Giroud Francois · July 17th, 2004, 05:38 PM

ok, after some brain storming with myself , i think a got a simple easy solution.
first you need an aluminium plate to hold all the stuff.
can be round or square, round being easier to put in a tube.
in this plate you drill the hole to display the picture.
A round hole is easier, a square one is better since it leaves more space on at least the 2 shortest side of the window.
you drill 2 small holes to receive 2 short axis on which you will plug 2 roller bearing
if you got a plate with thickness of 3mm and a roller bearing thick of 3mm , then an axis long on 6mm is ok.
diameter and position of axis depends the internal/external diam. of roller bearing.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/plate1.jpg
you can lock the roller bearing with locktite or glue on the axis.
the next part is the hardest.
It is a cap made of delrin or aluminium that covers the 2 ball bearing. one of this cover is the pulley that makes rotate the 2nd plate, so you can design it a bit larger than the other one.
this cap as a pin on top of it that act like an axis.
this pin (or axis) is not centered in the middle of the cap, but out centered to produce the displacement needed. 1 or 2 mm is enough i think. the less you move, the less you generate bad vibs.
http://www.giroud.com/minidv/cap.jpg
again you can glue the cap on the ball bearing.
then you plug a 2nd set of ball bearing on the axis of the cap.
The last part is the plate that hold the gg.
it is smaller diam. than the first one due to the displacement, but basically can have the same shape as the first one.
you glue this plate onto the external ring of the ball bearings and it is finished.
before glueing it, do not forget to put in place the belt that will run the pulley. you can use a very small diameter motor (the same one used for vibrating device in mobile phone for example, they have the same diameter as a cigarette).
http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncomme...x=26&Next.y=15
the challenge is to find 4 really small ball bearing like you find in floppy drive or harddisk (about 5mm diam. for about 3mm thickn.) to build a really compact gg vibrator.
http://www.smbbearings.com/smbcatalogue.htm
if you think that only 2 axis is too weak, you can add an axis to form a triangle as there is some space left next the top ball bearing on image plate1.jpg.
axis can be made from drill of drilling machine as you can find them
in various diameter and they are made of steel.

July 13th, 2004, 08:22 PM	#77
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	just a thought... has anyone tried an optical image stabiliser mechanism from say a busted camera to move the GG by-pass the sensors and feed it a sinusoidal signal in x and y to produce the orbital motion OIS supports a lens element so a GG would be that much lighter also they are small, light, quiet and designed to fit in a tube __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

July 14th, 2004, 07:09 AM	#78
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	support system thank you giroud for the pictures of your support system . It looks very professional. this will be of great help in helping all of us to make our own . I have a 6 pound anamorphic lens I would like to use. your rack system will let me use it this is a link to a company that sells aluminum rods I can't vouch for this company yet but they seem to have parts we might need . http://www.smallparts.com/

July 14th, 2004, 07:04 PM	#80
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	motors Bret, I think I mentioned that my motor was from a tape deck, so yes, they seem to work fine. They usually have a little pulley on them as well, so you don't have to hunt for that also. I haven't had time to finish my shaker rig in the past few days, I have another opto-electronic project that is going to eat most of my time in the next 2 months. Gotta pay the bills! I'll try to get it all mounted during this weekend. -Les

July 13th, 2004, 07:36 PM	#76
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Giroud , In the USA , if you took that outside, I'll bet the police would be there soon, thinking it's a weapon of some kind ! Nice work on the AL parts, it all looks pretty clean! -Les

July 14th, 2004, 03:51 PM	#79
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Thanks for the link. Im sure I'll be able to find some things there. I checked out their supply of aluminum stock and unfortunately they dont deal with metric sizes. I mention it because support rails and most pro accessories are based off a 15mm rod. FilmTools have them for $70, which even I think is too expensive for something so basic. They are however chome plated and you can screw in extensions. Any more sources guys? Also Les I never heard what you thought of the audio tape motors. I would love to hear some responses to the question I posted the other day. Thanks everyone. -Brett Erskine

July 15th, 2004, 12:49 AM	#81
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Brett. Would a fan motor from a computer (ball bearing type not plain bearing) be any good. They're built for continuous duty and I think some are brushless DC. Might be an oddball voltage though.

July 15th, 2004, 08:23 AM	#82
Roman Shafro Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 84	<<<-- Originally posted by Giroud Francois : ok , first pictures. probably a good pass with a black paint spay will help to get a more professional look All is made from very cheap aluminium profile. You just need to cut and assemble together. The full stuff cost me less than 35$. Looks very professional to me, one of the best DIY rail systems I've seen so far. I wish I knew how to achieve this look without using a milling machine, which I do not have. I'd be most interested in how you solved the coupling between the rods and sliding support. Also, are your sliding supports height-adjustable? Great work!

July 15th, 2004, 11:06 AM	#83
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	ok , first the picture... http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a1.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/a2.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b1.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/b2.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/c.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/d.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/e.jpg now for the aluminium stuff, i try to find only component you can assemble with epoxy glue and some screw when needed. Fortunately my DIY shop as all what i can dream. i do not plan for this first shot to make anything variable. you can just slide the stuff along the rail as it is just blocked by 4 o-ring plastics joints. i plan to add another stuff like a handle and a shoulder support so i can use it without tripod. The next version will be more sleek , all soldered instead screwed and probably respecting the 80mm spacing as the bars are already at the standard (15mm). as soon as i got time i will show more macro shot (probably breaking the dream but who cares...)

July 15th, 2004, 11:41 AM	#84
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	Wow! Those are very impressive images. Excellent work, Giroud!

July 15th, 2004, 01:56 PM	#85
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Giroud- I agree! Very nice! You have a static 35mm adapter which makes it even more amazing. Could you refresh us with the components you used for your set up (ie type and placement of diopter, gg, etc.)

July 15th, 2004, 04:56 PM	#86
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	ok , i will post all the pictures so no long explanations are necessary. The gg has been made with a technique a learned from several bad previous attempt. I put my AO (it is the 1000 grit one) obtained from a guy in france who purchased tons of it for his miniDV project and start to share. it cost me 10$ and it is the only one i got, since my previous order on the web has been never responded. I put about 3 or 4 teespoon of it into a baby food glass pot. added about 3 time water. shake for 10 sec, leave for 5 sec and take a small syringe and fill it. Drop a few of it on the glass plate . this ensure you only get the finest of it. that is very liquid mix, and you can even think it is only colored water. put the lens over and start to move slowly. no pressure required , just a lot of time (count about 30 min for the first result). you can here the sound shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. suddenly shhhhhzrrrrrrshhhhhhhh. ooops you just got a bad sheep and probably made a nice scratch. Clean all with water (lens and glass) shake the mix and start again. if you are lucky you got a good shot and the bad noise never come back. While you work, the mix start to dry and the AO tends to accumulate on the border. just bring it back with the lens (passing on it) and add a bit more of the mix when it is drying. this is were the syring is very effective. the advantage of this is you let the AO wear and it goes probably finer as you progress. The result is a very fine gg ,too fine indeed, so you will need to make a pass with a mix of AO a bit more consistent (more AO, less water) for few minutes and with a bit more of pressure. This get the real final aspect (very opaque glass). Personally this stage included the creation of fine scratch that i removed with the same technique (lot of water, few AO) described before. Another point is that i am not using glass of a uV filter but the one from a very thin lens (you will see that in picture soon). I think the kind of glass used inluence greatly the result. ... pictures. the alu part costing about 1$ each except the right angle tube (electrical booth of the DIY shop) that cost 6$. http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu1.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu2.jpg http://www.giroud.com/minidv/alu3.jpg not shown are eloxed tube (1meter, 15mm dia) for about 5$ it is not raw alu, it is a special stuff called Duralumin that is much harder (you can not bend it, it will break like steel) and it is much lighter than alu and the mat eloxed finish is very cool. the GG lens (the one for my 2nd proto, not yet frosted) because i still hesistate to use it if i have to vibrate, should be too big and heavy. the lense is 60mm diameter and about 4mm thick at center. http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens.jpg the achromat macro lens 52mm dia.(this one was a test for GG) 5$ at www.suplusshed.com http://www.giroud.com/minidv/lens2.jpg all these lens have pretty long focal length (around 20cm) that is why my adapter is so long. I think i could make it shorter, but the previous version that was shorter about 2 inches showed heavy vignetting that is why i build this version longer. Finally there is another lens between the condenser and the macro that looks like a huge (55mm dia) contact lens and i think this one make all the difference and could probably let me shorten all the stuff. the pot with the AO (since several week the water evaporate but you can still see the level it was. http://www.giroud.com/minidv/aomix.jpg

July 16th, 2004, 01:03 AM	#87
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Girard. If you use a piece of bronze with flat smooth surface, milled or turned on lathe, there is less problem with sticking-scratch.

July 16th, 2004, 02:44 AM	#88
Brett Erskine Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Anaheim, CA Posts: 445	Giroud- Thanks for the detailed response. One question. You say that you have another lens between the condenser and the macro lens and its shaped like a contact lens. Do you mean it has two curved surfaces - one convex and one concaved? What is the effect/purpose of this lens in your adapter? Thanks ahead of time. -Brett

July 16th, 2004, 05:42 AM	#89
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	yes that is correct . the lens has a concave side and a convex one. they are not the same curve, so there is a magnification effect, but not really big the lens anyway is very thin (few milimeters at the thickest). the picture i got without this lens (gg condenser +macro) was good but you can still see this halo (bright center/dark corner) on my 60mm diam. gg glass. the zoom was then very touchy to place to make sure you did not get any vignetting. Then i just give a try to this lens and wow, what a difference. the gg glass become covered with same light on all the surface, while keeping the same field of view. the only problem i did not see immediately it that the position of the lens is critical. too close from the gg and the straight line start to curve inside and too far they curve outside, but finally i found the correct distance and all is ok. to Bob Hart. Ok thank for the advice, but it seems this kind of equipment is in the "hard to find" section and my strategy for the miniDV project was "keep it simple". That is why i am still reluctant to gg vibration as it is involving very special work and parts. I do not desesperate to be able to do it with very simply but tracks are not really clear. Any way if you can reach the quality of my gg glass, the level of vibration required should be very small.

July 17th, 2004, 05:38 PM	#90
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	ok, after some brain storming with myself , i think a got a simple easy solution. first you need an aluminium plate to hold all the stuff. can be round or square, round being easier to put in a tube. in this plate you drill the hole to display the picture. A round hole is easier, a square one is better since it leaves more space on at least the 2 shortest side of the window. you drill 2 small holes to receive 2 short axis on which you will plug 2 roller bearing if you got a plate with thickness of 3mm and a roller bearing thick of 3mm , then an axis long on 6mm is ok. diameter and position of axis depends the internal/external diam. of roller bearing. http://www.giroud.com/minidv/plate1.jpg you can lock the roller bearing with locktite or glue on the axis. the next part is the hardest. It is a cap made of delrin or aluminium that covers the 2 ball bearing. one of this cover is the pulley that makes rotate the 2nd plate, so you can design it a bit larger than the other one. this cap as a pin on top of it that act like an axis. this pin (or axis) is not centered in the middle of the cap, but out centered to produce the displacement needed. 1 or 2 mm is enough i think. the less you move, the less you generate bad vibs. http://www.giroud.com/minidv/cap.jpg again you can glue the cap on the ball bearing. then you plug a 2nd set of ball bearing on the axis of the cap. The last part is the plate that hold the gg. it is smaller diam. than the first one due to the displacement, but basically can have the same shape as the first one. you glue this plate onto the external ring of the ball bearings and it is finished. before glueing it, do not forget to put in place the belt that will run the pulley. you can use a very small diameter motor (the same one used for vibrating device in mobile phone for example, they have the same diameter as a cigarette). http://www.jameco.com/cgi-bin/ncomme...x=26&Next.y=15 the challenge is to find 4 really small ball bearing like you find in floppy drive or harddisk (about 5mm diam. for about 3mm thickn.) to build a really compact gg vibrator. http://www.smbbearings.com/smbcatalogue.htm if you think that only 2 axis is too weak, you can add an axis to form a triangle as there is some space left next the top ball bearing on image plate1.jpg. axis can be made from drill of drilling machine as you can find them in various diameter and they are made of steel.